elan scan drivers

[chrism]

RonR both of my USB ports are exactly the same driver versions as yours - except that mine are labelled com4 - but then we'd expect that since we're both on win10 22H2.

my l/top's also got a USB2 port. Should I try ES for data acquisition on the USB2 port - and should I look for driver versions on this port? Will those actions add any flesh to the bones?

[RonR]

Hi Chris,
If you could try plugging the cable into the USB2 port that would be a big help, what you should see in Device Manager is the same stack of drivers as Ken and I had with USB2.

[chrism]

Ron here are your drivers that I checked on my laptop (whilst plugged in to ES but not into the car):-

Vendor / Version / Date / Driver
Microsoft 10.0.19041.3086 21/06/2006 "PCI Express Root complex"
Microsoft 10.0.19041.3031 08/05/2023 "Intel(R) USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller - 1.0 (Microsoft)"
Microsoft 10.0.19041.3208 06/07/2023 "USB Root Hub (USB 3.0)"
FTDI 2.12.36.4 05/07/2021 "USB Serial Converter"
FTDI 2.12.36.4 05/07/2021 "USB Serial Port (Com3)"

From my USB3 ports I agreed exactly with your values - except mine was (Com4) in your last line.

From my USB2 port I agreed exactly with your values - except your last 2 lines - USB serial converter and USB port - were missing. So FDTI versions were missing? I'll check a little later today to see the effect on ES and report back?

Edit: Later today plugged into my USB2 ran ES, connected to the car, engine running etc. Data acquisition occurred exactly like before (USB3) with the usual complaints and frozen curser. So...no FDTI on USB2 and it's all the same? Confused...

[chrism]

...and I reckon my next action should be to clone my win11 22H2 PC hdd which has had win10 1809 updated -> 22H2 then updated further -> win11 22H2 and put this hdd in the l/top - since age won't allow it to update from win10 to win11.

I'll report back when I get chance to try to see if data acquisition works with this version from the car - when I can get hold of another hdd to put into the l/top.

[chrism]

Nope...didn't work. No data acquisition.

I ended up loading win10 1809 back on to the l/top which updated and stopped at 22H2...and it talked and logged okay...
edit: I was using USB3...

[RonR]

I tried using a combined USB3 + USB2 hub - plugged into a USB3 port on the W10 22H2 laptop:
When first plugged in using the USB2 port on the hub I got a few packets of data logged, but haven't been able to reproduce that first euphoric moment since!

[chrism]

Well...my only resolution has been to have two separate ssds - one with win10 running ES and the other with win11 for general use.

Fortunately I'm running an old Lenovo x230 l/top so it's easy to swap the hard drives over - but the 'anorak' in me is a bit miffed that I can't come to terms with the cause...

[dapinky]

Chris,

I too, like to know "why" something works or doesn't work - but far earlier in this thread I realised that it was all a bit beyond my current understanding, and just accept that I will just use my old netbook for Elanscan (and other garage/travelling type use), and not worry about the "why" of it all....

..... just for some sort of 'completeness' on my part, It makes no difference on my old system if I use the USB 2 or USB 3 port - it just works! (also on bluetooth link).

[chrism]

Dapinky I'm relatively new to m100 and there will undoubtedly be newer members than me with shiny new win11 stuff that'll come 'late to the party' just like I did with Mountain Chips.

Well, that's been solved for us in the last couple of weeks by RonR's exceptional dual prom/Mountain Chips innovation, and I'd like to feel that I could contribute and help those who might not be able to get the ES tool sparking but I've tried (adding to others) every combination of win10/11, FDTI version and ES that I can - even wiping drives and reloading. Frustratingly I couldn't download a fresh version of win7 but I suspect that'd work okay. It has to be some win11 anomaly that is failing to 'reach back' to accommodate or engage with the legacy ES drivers, whilst early versions of win10 can (somehow) and (possibly) all versions of win8...

How long will it be before those early versions are not supported or unavailable? Will everybody have to swap ssds, dual-boot or run an old legacy machine just to use ES? Doesn't make sense...

(I've also looked at running win10 + ES virtually within a win11 environment - but win11 doesn't seem to want to co-operate with that, either .

[RonR]

I've also tried the virtual machine route with Micros*ft virtualisation, but there seems to be no way of configuring "Passthrough" of a USB device into the Virtual Machine.
I'll have a look at VMWare's free offering, maybe that has the correct options.....

[dapinky]

As a complete amateur when it comes to hardware (I'm one of 'those' people who ask things like "can't you 'just' do.....?") am I correct in thinking that this is a combination of hardware and software conflict where the USB drivers are not recognised by the newest versions of Windows, and it just won't pass the signals???

I only ask because if the problem is "just" getting the signals from the PC to the ECU (via the ALDL) and back again, can that be done by Bluetooth instead of hardwire? Or will that have the same (similar?) issues with W11?

The Bluetooth dongle that Geoff gave me to trial "Elandroid" on the phone also works with my W10 machine/Elanscan - I haven't tried it recently with the W11 machine, but I can do so if it may help.

I don't know the practical difference between setting the latency etc (not my skillset/understanding area) and if one has beter resolution than the other can provide.

I don't use ES for a lot of stuff, and it's main purpose to me is statically setting things like TPS/Throttle cable/idle speed and the odd logged run if I have a problem (which I haven't needed to do for many years) - so I don't know when it worked or failed to work on which system I used at the time.... I tend to change my laptop when it breaks these days, as opposed to having a new one every year whilst i was working, and needed to have 3 or 4 at a time on the go.

[Saltire]

Chris: I have a couple of copies of Windows 7 on CD with Certificates of Authenticity. You’d be welcome to borrow one of those if you wish, for experimental purposes

[TrevorB]

I'm in the same camp as Dave and have very little knowledge of what is happening but definitely have an interest and following the thread with high expectations.
It was the Castle Coombe saga that appears to have instigated all of this and therefore reasons for the interest. I have a Windows 11 laptop and no access to another with previous software. As time goes on and folk renew there machines only future levels of software will be available so a fix would need to be found, presumably.
My questions are:
Who originally produced the driver's and are they able to give any answers?
Can Microsoft help in any way?

Good Luck and Best Wishes

Trevor

[RonR]

A bit of history...

Elanscan was written in the days of REAL Serial Comm-Ports, all computers had them to connect to a Modem in the days before Broadband and Wi-Fi. Early Elanscan cables had the plugs to mate to these Comm ports. The drivers were built in to Windows as they all used the same type of "UART" chips.
So we had 1 layer of software between the ECU and ElanScan.

Along came Broadband, Wi-Fi and USB so manufacturers decided to remove the Comm ports from PCs and Laptops, saving some space for more exotic components.
Several companies (including FTDI) saw that people still needed to connect to Serial devices, so came up with a Comm-port implementation which plugs into a USB port. BUT - these needed specific drivers to make them work, with the driver software creating a "Virtual Comm Port", which looks like a real one to the ElanScan program. So the newer Elanscan cables were made using the FTDI USB-Comm-port cable, and required the installation of FTDI Drivers.
Now we have 2 layers of software, USB2 driver and Virtual Comm port driver.

In the last few years USB3 has arrived, but our ElanScan cables are USB2! USB3 is supposed to be backward compatible, BUT this introduces another layer of software between the ECU and ElanScan. The 3 layers are now USB3, USB2 and Virtual Comm Port.

To add to this complexity, USB3 drivers can be specific to chip manufacturers, i.e. Intel has it's own USB3 driver, etc... and of course there are different versions for the various releases of Windows, plus 32-bit and 64-bit versions for several of the Windows implementations.

So - ElanScan has seen many changes over the years, but as long as the chain of software between it and the ECU respected the original serial protocol and timing it still worked.

The difficult parts are to work out what changed to make it fail, and finding a way to fix it.

[RonR]

Latest update:

Installed VMWare Player on my Windows 10 Laptop, then installed Windows 7 in a VM and let almost 200 updates run through.
Changed VM settings to create a virtual USB3 controller.
Installed Windows 7 USB3 drivers in the VM as it doesn't come with them.
Attached Trevor's cable to a USB3 port then to the VM and checked that I could see the USB3 device in Windows 7 Device Manager.
Installed FTDI drivers version 36 Desktop on Windows 7 in the VM, and checked the Virtual Comm port was created (com3).
Changed port settings: Transfer sizes to 64 and Latency to 1.
Started ElanScan with com3 - got exactly the same problem as using the Laptop without using a Virtual Machine.

Changed VM settings to create a virtual USB2 controller.
Attached Trevor's cable to a USB3 port then to the VM and checked that I could see the device in Windows 7 Device Manager - This time it appeared as a USB2 device.
Checked port settings hadn't changed from above.
Started ElanScan with com3 - TaDaaaaaa!!!!!

Win7-VMWare-USB2.jpg

So - I can say that in my case it's working, but what a palaver to get there!!!

Edit: The USB3 drivers in use on the laptop and in the VM were Intel ones, I wonder if other chipset manufacturer's drivers produce the same results???

[RonR]

Another update:

Tried exactly the same as above but this time with Windows 8.1 in a VM, except Windows 8.1 has generic USB3 drivers so doesn't need the Intel ones.
Came back with the same results - attached as a USB3 device - no worky, but as a USB2 - works fine!
Next up - Windows 10 pre-22H2!

[chrism]

Thanks Saltire, I have win7 but it's not supported; you have to install it w/out upgrades for it to finish the install, then it can't get on the 'net...I reckon should work ES acquisitions anyway since it's 'legacy'. I think RonR's just got win7 to work (albeit in a complex way) anyway...

RonR win10 v1809 loaded ES up okay w/out any need for external FTDI drivers (tho' they might have been part of the legacy ES package?) and when the 22H2 update took over it kept working okay. I'm not absolutely sure but I seem to remember that loading ES straight into 22H2 might not have worked for me so I'll look forward to your results with this. But impressed with your TaDaaaaaa!!!!! result - not sure I understood the method tho'

Btw a cloned Win11 v22H2 from PC to laptop runs ES with previously acquired data - but won't acquire it for itself... I haven't got a shiny new laptop that's capable of updating as normal from win10 22H2 to win11 22H2 but this would've been my next move. I'd have expected this to acquire data since the drivers would have been established by the earlier win10 process?

So far I can only recommend an early win10 version on a l/top that isn't blessed enough to update beyond win10

[dapinky]

If this thread gets any more complicated I'm off to the attic to dig out my old IBM T22 laptop with a serial port...... at least I know that works with ES..... it is at it's limit of hardware though to get W-XP to run smoothly!!!

[chrism]

Soo...the way I see it...ES was conceived in the serial port era and this port has since been superseded by usb2 - in quest of miniaturization (now needing FTDI 'converters') - then usb3 (needing further FTDI upgrade?)

Currently most popular laptops/PCs on sale have done away with serial and, now possibly, usb2 ports in order to favour (faster) usb3. (Question: Was usb2/3 called parallel port?)

My oldish Lenovo x230 laptop has 1 x usb2, 2 x usb3 plus a serial port - so I'm wondering if I should go off on a tangent by getting hold of a female usb -> serial converter and seeking data acquisition success with my cloned-from-PC win11 22H2 ssd inside the laptop which has ES-working-but-not-acquiring capability?

BUT, I suppose, if it does enable win11 data-acquisition from ES it won't necessarily be a solution since the newer win11-friendly l/tops don't have a serial port - although it seems there are some 'professional' l/tops (premium prices?) that offer one.

ps I was 'getting into' the more modern obdII port of my previous MGTF135 using 'PScan' via this laptop and its usb/com ports w/out any of these m100/ES issues...

pps following RonR's recent Mountain Chips rebirth I'm wondering if EScan can be similarly raised from the ashes as totally usb and windows (and other op system?) compliant, rather than a legacy serial conversion (at best)?

[dapinky]

Now, I know I'm not really helping, but I've had another thought.....

..... and that is the fact that USB3 is getting towards being "yesterdays technology" - when most new laptops now come with USB C sockets (as well as USB A, either 2.0 or 3.0), has anyone thought or looked at what happens with a USB type C connection???

There are many 'converters' out there to allow you to plug a USB male into a USB C socket - some say they are USB 3.0, some don't say, and some claim to be USB 2.

I know that the whole point of USB C is speed, so most will allow fastest speed possible through any adapter - but that doesn't matter to us for this application, so i was merely wondering if any 'drivers' for USB Type C will allow ES into the laptop????

Now I've thrown that hand grenade into the room, I'm off to Tesco and then into the garage to play with big, oily, greasy metal bits on the car - I understand those!!!!!!!