Car won't shut off anymore

[siejai]

Trying to get my car back up and running after it has been sitting in the garage for a while and it has developed a new problem, it won't shut off when I switch the key off, take the key out and disconnect the battery. I have a battery disconnect switch behind the passenger seat so I usually shut it off when I shut the car off so the battery doesn't die. I found a similar thread a while back, so I tried all those solutions:

First I installed a new ignition switch (A100H6051F), but the connectors didn't match with the Federal Elan switch I had so I depinned the connector and wired them up according to the diagram colors. There was a 4th wire on both the connector and the new ignition switch, I wired them together but couldn't find them on the wiring diagram, so I assume they are for the radio (possibly?) Everything seems to work the same as with the previous ignition switch, nothing is out of the ordinary when I put the key in and every position does what it is supposed to do until I want to shut the car off.

Secondly I pulled the relay on the relay panel up above the instrument cluster. B,C,D,E,J,H,G & F relays all looked the same to me, so I swapped J & H for E & F and it didn't have any effect on the problem.

The alternator is putting out 14+v when the car is running and it's around 12ish Volts when I start the car. Not sure how to diagnose if this is causing a problem.

The previous owner of the car had some kind of turbo timer switch installed on one of the switch blanks, but I took that switch out like 10 years ago because it didn't work (or work right) and haven't seen any issue of this sort, so I'm not sure that has anything to do with it. But it's likely where I'll start looking.

Any ideas on where to start chasing wiring to fix this issue would be appreciated; maybe I missed something... Also is there a better way to shut the car off than stalling it out? Maybe I'll throw a switch on the fuel pump relay if I can't figure it out.

Car has no alarm system, I removed the radio antenna, headlights are currently out at the moment, has A/C, none of the tell-tale lamps are illuminated.

[Tuga2112]

Maybe I'll throw a switch on the fuel pump relay if I can't figure it out.

one quick and simple way is to flick the inertia switch. that will stop the fuel pump which will starve the motor within a few seconds.

as far as your issue.

i would need more details about this turbo timer you speak of, i understand you removed the control unit of it from your description. but i dont know if your familiarity with electrical issues is enough to fully remove the timer. and how the timer was originally installed to the car.

i don't mean this in a disrespectful manner. but your symptoms seem to be of an electrical nature. and turbo timers are meant to cause exactly the symptoms you see, a faulty one can do exactly what you describe.
someone who fully understands how to remove both an alarm and turbo timer correctly from a vehicle would be unlikely to ask for help so that makes

the coil packs are directly feed from the ignition wire (comes from the ignition switch, (black) to a connector (white) and then splits to multiple lanes (including 3 white and 1 red)
the red one goes tot he coil packs. and without power there, you cannot physically get sparks.

turbo timers are usually installed after the ignition and control ignition lane/wire to delay the length of time the ignition line stays "up"
removing the visible control of the timer doesn't necessarily mean the "brain" was removed from the car.

[marvic]

I had the same issue on a different car and it was alternator. I don’t recall the exact details but believe it may have been ground related. It was showing the correct voltages as you appear to have.

[siejai]

I'm not sure what the nature of the turbo timer was when I took it out, it was the only modification of the car that I know of when I bought it second-hand and I knew less of what I was doing back then than I do now. All I know is it was an ugly silver toggle switch drilled into a switch blank and when it was on it would sometimes cause the cars engine to stay on with the key out and sometimes it wouldn't do anything at all. I don't think it had a delay with the ignition or anything, I believe it was just a timer to keep the engine running after shutting it off after running the car hard (?), as I said sometimes it did something and sometimes it did not. Either way it seemed to me like a pointless modification because I need to leave the car in gear when I park it.

I ended up removing the switch and I believe whatever it was connected to, but I have a pretty lousy memory especially something from 10+ years ago. After removing the switch the car sat for many years not being used, got used for maybe a year, then sat in a garage unused for a while until I drove it pretty regularly around 2021 - early 2023. In all that time I never had an issue with the ignition staying on since I removed the switch. The car has probably sat for around 6 months because I need to address the paintwork. But the car ran off and on without any problem from its removal for 15 years in whatever state I left the circuit in.

I have some experience with electrical circuits so I can read the diagrams etc, but I'm not very experienced with automotive electronics. I haven't done much to the car since I posted as far as troubleshooting the electronics go, but I'll probably need to trace out the ignition wiring to make sure it isn't connected to anything it shouldn't be. I just figured I'd post on here to see if anyone else had any ideas of something more simple that I might have overlooked. Hopefully it's not the alternator.

[Tuga2112]

I don't think it had a delay with the ignition or anything,

if you mean ingition literally. yes. but it will be connected the the igniition circuitry

I believe it was just a timer to keep the engine running after shutting it off after running the car hard (?)

yes, that is whats meant to do. to allow oil to circulate around the turbo while its cooling down. because if you stop the car straigh away, the turbo oil can get extremely hot and leave deposits... at least thats the theory

but I'll probably need to trace out the ignition wiring to make sure it isn't connected to anything it shouldn't be.

this is purely a guess, but I suspect you removed the "dial" which set the machine to "off" by default becuase it lacked input. but the machine may overtime decided to missbehave.

I just figured I'd post on here to see if anyone else had any ideas of something more simple that I might have overlooked. Hopefully it's not the alternator.

you can read the wiring diagrams and check in details what electrical systems are associated to the engine operation. But by design. the car is not meant to run unless the ignition switch lets a signal through. (the switch is operated by youe key)
turbo timers are usually installed within that same line/cable/wire in the circuit (mainly because its easy to find, and usually easy to access). and just pretend the switch is still on for a predermined amount of time.

i cant think of anything else that may be wrong. because you have not stated that "the ignition is on as soon as i connect the battery, even with the key out"
if you had made that statement, i would be shouting "rats" and "mice" and "short circuit" because thats what would make sense to me...

theres some folk in here who know the sparky side better than me... you may get lucky with alternative ideas.

[Saltire]

Joao's right: the best way to stop the car in the circumstances you describe is to trip the inertia switch which cuts off the fuel supply. (Note: All the relevant manuals for the car are available on this site, through the "Manuals" link at the top of any forum page, provided you're logged in.

Now, back to your original issue. I am by no means an expert on automotive electrics, but I have been around them a long time Others on here are far more knowledgeable than me. I do, however, have a couple of working rules which I find apply most of the time:

1. If it was working immediately before I fitted a new component, it's likely to be the new component which is at fault
2. If you can't find anything else obvious (especially on a glass fibre car), it's probably an earth connection.

Now, you kind of imply that you were having the problem before you changed the ignition switch - but you also say that the new switch was different from the old one. It may be fine, but I'd be checking very carefully that you ordered the right switch for your car. There are several in the parts list (see below):

Screenshot 2024-02-23 202815 (Custom).png

Secondly, given your comments about rewiring, I would use a multimeter to check there is no current on the switched side (right hand side on the diagram) of the switch when it's turned off. See the wiring diagram below:

Screenshot 2024-02-23 201257 (Custom).png

Thirdly, I would approach some of the other North America forum members and ask them to confirm how many wires their ignition switches have.

Finally, I would look at the earth points , especially those on the engine and pedal box. See diagrams below:

Screenshot 2024-02-23 204433 (Custom).png

Screenshot 2024-02-23 at 8.44.54 PM (Custom).png

If none of that is successful in finding the fault, I'm a bit stumped (not helped by me having an RHD S2 and you having a Federal SE ) Please let us know how you get on.

[lotusflasherman]

Quicker way to stop the engine in those circumstances is put it in 5th gear, put foot HARD on brake pedal and let the clutch up to deliberately stall the engine. It gives a bit of mechanical strain rather than the issue of running lean for a while when fuel supply is cut.. but it's also much easier to do.

[siejai]

I put in a little toggle switch inline with the inertia switch to cut the fuel to shut it off, which has served me well enough for now until I get around to figuring out what exactly is going on with it.

Today I'm pretty sure the alternator died, or at least the rectifier portion, as I had some issues getting the car to start. So I'm going to change out the alternator and hopefully that fixes the ignition issue.

Looks like I did order the wrong ignition switch, I got the non-airbag version. It definitely didn't cause the problem, but probably explains why the connectors didn't match up. I didn't change anything with the car before it started acting up, it was just sitting in a garage for 6 months (maybe 9).

Tuga - I watched your videos on the alternator, do you think it's worth rebuilding the alternator and if so where did you get the parts?

My options look like buy from SJ Sportscars and pay a ton of shipping and get some kind of alternator that will work (I have no idea what sort they are reselling) for around $180, I can get a proper rebuilt alternator from somewhere else in the UK ($223.00), or I grab something local that works with 90-92 Isuzu Impulse/Stylus and Geo Storm for around $90 and hope it fits. Also there is one on eBay for $180, but it's just pulled out of a M100 not refurbished or anything.

I'm leaning towards the cheap local option and hope it fits.

[Saltire]

I seem to recall that Dave Pink (pinky on the Forum) has fittted a replacement alternator on one of his cars, which came from Rock Auto in the US. There have been some problems with new OEM alternators failing after a short time, in the UK at least.

IIRC, Dave’s one fitted fine but was fractionally larger in size and so required a longer drive belt.

Have a look at this thread.

[Tuga2112]

Today I'm pretty sure the alternator died, or at least the rectifier portion, as I had some issues getting the car to start.

a dead alternator would have zero effect on the car starting. the alternator only works after the engine is spinning fleely im surprised Saltire didnt mention this in he's previous reply

So I'm going to change out the alternator and hopefully that fixes the ignition issue.

dont bother. it wont fix anything

Looks like I did order the wrong ignition switch, I got the non-airbag version. It definitely didn't cause the problem, but probably explains why the connectors didn't match up. I didn't change anything with the car before it started acting up, it was just sitting in a garage for 6 months (maybe 9).

i dont know the difference in wiring, so i cannot comment as your specific scenario. but given an general understanding of DC electrics, i would be confirming exactly why the wiring is different to be sure i didnt disable the airbag accidentally

Tuga - I watched your videos on the alternator, do you think it's worth rebuilding the alternator and if so where did you get the parts?

My options look like buy from SJ Sportscars and pay a ton of shipping and get some kind of alternator that will work (I have no idea what sort they are reselling) for around $180, I can get a proper rebuilt alternator from somewhere else in the UK ($223.00), or I grab something local that works with 90-92 Isuzu Impulse/Stylus and Geo Storm for around $90 and hope it fits. Also there is one on eBay for $180, but it's just pulled out of a M100 not refurbished or anything.

i agree with saltire. its a much more viable option to get a replacement from an impulse and getting a longer belt.. i mean i would be getting it from rockauto if i needed a new one and im paying far more in postage.

also i can confirm that SJS is not selling appropriate units for closed loop M100s. mine gone wrong as soon as i made the conversion.

but, as previously mentioned. your starting issue is NOT going to be directly related to the alternator. it can be indirectly related. if the battery is low due to not charging. however, its easy to test that theory.

just make sure your battery is fully charged and try to start the car. if it starts. you "may" have an issue with alternator (can further explain later) but if it struggles or doesnt start, its NOT going to be an alternator issue.

[Simon_P]

the coil packs are directly feed from the ignition wire (comes from the ignition switch, (black) to a connector (white) and then splits to multiple lanes (including 3 white and 1 red)
the red one goes tot he coil packs. and without power there, you cannot physically get sparks.

looking at the wiring diagram on Saltair's post the ignition switch wire, coils and alternator are all on the same feed. So a fault in the wiring or alternator could cause that to remain energised. (This includes the ignition service which are connected).

So it should be straight forward to check this feed and isolate things until there's no voltage. Ie ignition off there should be no voltage in the wire, if there's voltage there's a fault.
Assuming you find voltage, disconnect the wire at the alternator - if the voltage is then zero the alternator is at fault.

Buy an alternator locally, the Elan alternator uses a smaller case uprated for higher output the impulse alternator is just the bigger cased version - make sure you get the correct regulator.

[Simon_P]

but, as previously mentioned. your starting issue is NOT going to be directly related to the alternator.

not so sure about that Tuga, could an alternator fault that keeps the voltage up enough to run could also pull into down enough to not run?

[Tuga2112]

but, as previously mentioned. your starting issue is NOT going to be directly related to the alternator.

not so sure about that Tuga, could an alternator fault that keeps the voltage up enough to run could also pull into down enough to not run?

Simon,
im refering to the "dificulty to start" mentioned in the most recent update from the OP.

if you can think of a reason why a faulty alternator can affect the startup of the engine im very curious to learn of the reasoning. (ignore that comment... as i came up with a possible reason further down)

as far as the "not switching off" issue. i am yet to completely rule out the possibility of an incomplete removal of the turbo timer.
if the statement " i removed the turbo timer" came from someone i know is "electrically literate" like yourself, saltire, ronr, geoff. (the list is getting bigger over the years) i would assume its been completely removed and not just the "user controller" that has the buttons. but because the OP background is completely unknown to me, my assumption is made based on the statistical probability of a "average" owner being familiar with the sparky side of the M100.

looking at the wiring diagram on Saltair's post the ignition switch wire, coils and alternator are all on the same feed. So a fault in the wiring or alternator could cause that to remain energised. (This includes the ignition service which are connected).

So it should be straight forward to check this feed and isolate things until there's no voltage. Ie ignition off there should be no voltage in the wire, if there's voltage there's a fault.
Assuming you find voltage, disconnect the wire at the alternator - if the voltage is then zero the alternator is at fault.

I stand corrected

after re-reading the same wiring diagram from jonathan's second picture. I have came to your way of thinking

according to the diagram. there are no diodes to ensure the current wont "back-flow" into the ingition coil from the white wire coming out of the alternator. (damaged/shorted diode in the faulty regulator coudl cause that?).
it just didnt occur to me until double checking the diagram that possibility.

interestingly enough. a faulty regulator could also be short circuiting the ingition wire and dropping the voltage enough that the coils wont be able to cause sparks "now" but in the past was letting current backflow

[Tuga2112]

i gotta say i do enjoy the mental exercises that diagnosing electrical issues brings.. first of all. i am learning as part of the process... but also solving issues from a corfortable armchair...

[Simon_P]

Joao,

Just one addition to that

i gotta say i do enjoy the mental exercises that diagnosing Other People's electrical issues brings..

after re-reading the same wiring diagram from jonathan's second picture. I have came to your way of thinking

No idea if it is possible or how to test it, but I did see that the alternator is at the end of the line - so if there is voltage with the ignition off and disconnecting the alternator removes the voltage it is likely that the alternator is the cause - What do you think?

[Tuga2112]

Joao,
No idea if it is possible or how to test it, but I did see that the alternator is at the end of the line - so if there is voltage with the ignition off and disconnecting the alternator removes the voltage it is likely that the alternator is the cause - What do you think?

I agree.

at the moment. my theory is that there is current flowing from the +VE post to the ignition coil via the white wire of the alternator (scary, considering how thin that wire is and how much power is needed to make a spark) under normal circunstances those 2 should not let current flow (at least in the "+Ve => W " direction)

as far as testing, this is what I would do.

1 -> first of all.. id be shouting some NSFW words.
2 -> I personally would check if there are 12v between a known good ground and the black wire in the back of the ignition barrel when the key is off. (and battery connected)
3 -> regarless of the outcome of that test... (with 12v I assume the alternator is shorting... 0v could mean the white wire has fried, or that we are chasing a red herring)
4-> I Would then proceed to disconnect the battery, remove the prongeron (shameless plug for another of my videos) and removing the plug at the back of the alternator and checking for continuity between the terminal where the White wire goes and the thick red wire coming out. i dont know what to expect in the W => +Ve direction. (regulator may work like a diode?) but i would not expect continuity in the opposite flow.

5-> at this point. i wish i had some easy means of drawing a flow chart. because theres a few diffent things i may be doing depending on the observations of the previous checks

12v and no continuity ==> go back and confirm the turbo timer is fully removed (or ask Peter for help)
12v and continuity => take alternator apart and swap the regulator.. re-test. (and afterwards possibly swap diode pack)
0v and no continuity ==> go back and confirm the turbo timer is fully removed (or ask Peter for help)
0v and continuity ==> check continuity between white wire at the alternator end and ISHC connector (while being very worried the wire is burned)

obviously. as a self taught DIYer/electrician/automotive electrician/welder/fabricator/electronics engineer/filmaker/cameramen/actor/producer/director/video editor/3d modeler/mechanic.....
you know what they say about jacks of all trades...
if the mastery of a trade is inversely proportional to the number of trades exercised.... probably no one should listen to me.