Error Codes 22 + 33, High Idle and Running Rich

[roj]

Just had this come through from Peter:

Hi
That’s a good question about service mode. I can’t give a definitive answer I’m afraid.
It the car still setting the codes 22 ?
You need to bottom that out
Low signal could be an open wire
I agree I’d be suspicious of the secondary throttle vac system or the actual butterfly being stuck slightly open
Have you had the plenum assy off ?

[chrism]

Well that's another itch scratched if you've found that the secondary throttle system has checked out as okay...

ps no need for a VAR decision:-

"At higher engine speeds the solenoid is de-energised and vents the actuator capsule to atmosphere allowing the throttles to spring open.

To reduce drain on the battery, the solenoid valve is de-energised with ignition on and engine stopped." from an earlier post

ie de-energised solenoid = sec throttles open...BUT what if the actuator capsule doesn't vent when ign's switched off? Say it's seized, rusty or blocked up somehow. I presume the actuator capsule vents to the atmosphere or the reservoir? If it can't vent could it flow out the wrong way as the ignition is turned on again and interfere with the sec throttle until it's 'all used up' by flowing the wrong way.

Fantasy on my part(?) - but could this explain the thumb-over-the-IAC-effect that we saw? Is it possible that the IAC and secondary throttle can interfere with each other in this way? Just a thought...

[dapinky]

Well, I'm all out of ideas at this point - but that doesn't mean I'm giving up.

I know that you have 'sort of' done it in the first video, BUT, what would happen if you fiddle with the IAC in service mode to drop the idle (like you did).... but then you put it back into 'Normal mode' whilst the engine was running......

..... what I'm thinking is can we get it down low(ish) again, in Service Mode, then unplug the IAC valve before taking it out of service mode,

My thoughts are that at that point, the IAC valve should be nearly closed, and if it is disconnected, then it will stay where it is - whatever the rest of the sensors are saying/doing as there is no connection. Then by bringing the other sensors online, what happens to the idle speed?

This isn't any sort of 'fix' as such. but may help to establish if the IAC valve is closing enough to make a reasonable seal in the plenum.

Other than that, I would be looking at taking off the whole plenum and checking that the IAC is sealing fully by examination and blowing smoke through it whilst you can see what is actually happening.

Oh, and if it helps, there is a really easy way to set Service Mode on and off with Elanscan plugged in - on all my Elans, one of the first thing I do is splice a wire into the two relevant wires just inboard of the ALDL plug, and run the splice through a simple rocker switch which is positioned in the top face of the glovebox - then with ES plugged in (or not!), you only have to open the glovebox and flip the switch to complete the connection that the paperclip would be doing. It is the only accurate way to ever set the idle speed as ES gives the 'correct' reading, but it needs to be in Service Mode to set it.

[TorqueHorse]

Roj,
Ahh, you've got a lot going on. I missed that video you already did where you had it in service mode and were able to "trick" the IAC to behave pretty well by unplugging, turning off, replugging, etc. It was idling pretty well, and then you took it out of service mode and WHAM, up up and away. https://youtu.be/iic_0ReaHK0

Since going in and out of service mode had such an effect, I went back to look at your elanscans to see what inputs are going to the ECU.
One thing that stood out to me is that your "Steering Load Normal?" is set to OFF, which means the ECU thinks your pwr steering pump is running and needs more engine to compensate.

roj-high steering load.jpg

On my elanscans, that tag is set to ON. Presumably it would come OFF if I did a hard turn, but I couldn't find a scan I did where I did a hard turn and recorded it.
This is one of the sensors that gets ignored during service mode (*need to triple check that is true) so it could make sense why such a change in behavior between service mode and not.

Any work near the radiator lately? There is a little wire that comes out of the bottom of the power steering pump and that should be plugged in and makes its way back to the ECU telling the ECU if the pump is hard at work or not.

Another avenue to explore in a darkening alley (fingers crossed).

[TorqueHorse]

Hmm, direct impact on the IAC?! This is starting to sound juicy...

roj-pwr steering IAC.jpg

(from daPinky's fabulous library of manuals https://b64c533c-a9e4-41d4-a41f-7b1948b ... f34a01.pdf
page 31 in the pdf)

[roj]

Roj,
Ahh, you've got a lot going on. I missed that video you already did where you had it in service mode and were able to "trick" the IAC to behave pretty well by unplugging, turning off, replugging, etc. It was idling pretty well, and then you took it out of service mode and WHAM, up up and away. https://youtu.be/iic_0ReaHK0

Since going in and out of service mode had such an effect, I went back to look at your elanscans to see what inputs are going to the ECU.
One thing that stood out to me is that your "Steering Load Normal?" is set to OFF, which means the ECU thinks your pwr steering pump is running and needs more engine to compensate.

roj-high steering load.jpg

On my elanscans, that tag is set to ON. Presumably it would come on if I did a hard turn, but I couldn't find a scan I did where I did a hard turn and recorded it.
This is one of the sensors that gets ignored during service mode (*need to triple check that is true) so it could make sense why such a change in behavior between service mode and not.

Any work near the radiator lately? There is a little wire that comes out of the bottom of the power steering pump and that should be plugged in and makes its way back to the ECU telling the ECU if the pump is hard at work or not.

Another avenue to explore in a darkening alley (fingers crossed).

Well well well. This is sounding interesting.

I mention a few pages/posts ago when this all started to happen. Floored the car onto a dual carriageway, got into the high rev range and then all went flat, loss of power for a second or two, engine light came on, power restored, engine light went off after a few seconds. The journey I was making was to have a new reconditioned Power Steering pump!!!!!!!!!!!

The journey (post power steering pump fitting) was fine but it was mentioned that the car was idling on the high side. I think around 1250-1500. Since then, I've been doing all the cleaning, restoring, replacing, etc and it's gradually got worse.

Could this be it?

Too late now for testing. It's dark and I'm sure the neighbourhood won't appreciate 3500-4000rpm at this time of night.

Will definitely check in tomorrow and report back! Thanks TorqueHorse!

[chrism]

Yes I can confirm TorqueHorse's observation and as you pointed out earlier the power steering switch (no.14) supplies the ecu with data to control idle speed.

The roj data in the first graph is the blue line at zero and my own data is the black line at "2":-




Could you be the victim of a stored code, I wonder? Strange that it hasn't shown up in your paper clip test - even tho Detective TorqueHorse clocked it in your EScan data.

edit ah yes - sorry - I forgot you've had a new ecu, please delete the stored code comment...

[roj]

Well that's another itch scratched if you've found that the secondary throttle system has checked out as okay...

ps no need for a VAR decision:-

"At higher engine speeds the solenoid is de-energised and vents the actuator capsule to atmosphere allowing the throttles to spring open.

To reduce drain on the battery, the solenoid valve is de-energised with ignition on and engine stopped." from an earlier post

ie de-energised solenoid = sec throttles open...BUT what if the actuator capsule doesn't vent when ign's switched off? Say it's seized, rusty or blocked up somehow. I presume the actuator capsule vents to the atmosphere or the reservoir? If it can't vent could it flow out the wrong way as the ignition is turned on again and interfere with the sec throttle until it's 'all used up' by flowing the wrong way.

Fantasy on my part(?) - but could this explain the thumb-over-the-IAC-effect that we saw? Is it possible that the IAC and secondary throttle can interfere with each other in this way? Just a thought...

Not sure what to say on this thought apart from it appears that the actuator is working/moving fine as you can see the top of the arm moving in my video. Again, won't dismiss it.

[roj]

Yes I can confirm TorqueHorse's observation and as you pointed out earlier the power steering switch (no.14) supplies the ecu with data to control idle speed.

The roj data in the first graph is the blue line at zero and my own data is the black line at "2":-




Could you be the victim of a stored code, I wonder? Strange that it hasn't shown up in your paper clip test - even tho Inspector TorqueHorse clocked it in your EScan data

Stored code you say? Is this possible? If so, how does one clear it? The ECU has been on and off so many times.

Thinking about it, that's not possible. I have a new ECU installed.

[roj]

Well, I'm all out of ideas at this point - but that doesn't mean I'm giving up.

I know that you have 'sort of' done it in the first video, BUT, what would happen if you fiddle with the IAC in service mode to drop the idle (like you did).... but then you put it back into 'Normal mode' whilst the engine was running......

..... what I'm thinking is can we get it down low(ish) again, in Service Mode, then unplug the IAC valve before taking it out of service mode,

My thoughts are that at that point, the IAC valve should be nearly closed, and if it is disconnected, then it will stay where it is - whatever the rest of the sensors are saying/doing as there is no connection. Then by bringing the other sensors online, what happens to the idle speed?

This isn't any sort of 'fix' as such. but may help to establish if the IAC valve is closing enough to make a reasonable seal in the plenum.

Other than that, I would be looking at taking off the whole plenum and checking that the IAC is sealing fully by examination and blowing smoke through it whilst you can see what is actually happening.

Oh, and if it helps, there is a really easy way to set Service Mode on and off with Elanscan plugged in - on all my Elans, one of the first thing I do is splice a wire into the two relevant wires just inboard of the ALDL plug, and run the splice through a simple rocker switch which is positioned in the top face of the glovebox - then with ES plugged in (or not!), you only have to open the glovebox and flip the switch to complete the connection that the paperclip would be doing. It is the only accurate way to ever set the idle speed as ES gives the 'correct' reading, but it needs to be in Service Mode to set it.

Get what you're saying here and something I will test tomorrow. After checking on power steering pump connections!

[peteoddcar]

I believe The pas wire open circuit will raise the revs
I can’t recall by how much I’ll test tomorrow.
My car had really bad start idle flair and a high idle a few years back. I reset everything, starting with base timing, idle in diagnostic mode. Found a few potential bits on the vac system but nothing definitive.
The adjustments I made to the base timing and idle fixed it. BUT I’ve today noticed it’s creeping up again - car is being used more this summer than it has for years.
I’ll take a look tomorrow

[roj]

Okay. So had a nosey at the power steering pump and the possible offending switch. Only thing I can make out is a cable that appears to run from the underside of the pump and down to a connector block. It definitely looks connected. Can the lead also be connected/disconnected direct off the pump? Block connector also looks slightly oily. Maybe from previous pump leak or I may have an oil rad leak.

IMG_7488.jpg

My problem is how the hell do I get to it? My big podgy arms can get nowhere near it!

Anyone have experience on this? Not sure if bumper off or wheel arch liner removal will help. Tried winding up the light pod but no access from there either.

Other point to note is it looks like a single blue cable.

[TorqueHorse]

Hey Roj,
I've only accessed it when the car is up on a ramp or jackstands and from the bottom of the car. Reading more about the sensor, I think when it gounds out, that is what throws the "I'm working hard" flag. So it might be a continuity issue somewhere from ecu to the sensor (or the sensor itself). Maybe there is a way to take that pin out at the ecu connection to see if blanking that sensor fixes your issue?

[roj]

Thanks for the guidance TorqueHorse. I had a day on the car yesterday.

I removed the drivers side (UK) inner wheel arch as it's been a job I've been meaning to do so I can inspect a possible leaking oil cooler. That certainly helped with visibility. Car was then jacked up and I atacked from underneath. I removed the cable that runs from the pump to the connection block. At the connection block it was absolutely covered in cr*p. I think this may have been from the previously leaking power steering pump prior to update. That cable was then all cleaned up and reconnected. I ran the car with both the cable on and off. No change to revs. So at the time, I thought it had nothing to do with that switch as nothing had changed. An hour or two later after mulling it over, I'm kicking myself for not testing to see if anything was going to the sensor as it's a single cable.

Am I right in thinking that:

• The ECU constantly sends power to the switch (which is open at normal operation/no load) and because the circuit is not complete, nothing registers.
• When high pressure is present in the switch (as the sterring is at full lock), the pressure forces the switch to close, completing the circuit and the ECU then receives that voltage/signal which in turn ramps up the rpm.
• There's the possibility that a break or a ground along the switch wiring is making connection then the circuit completes/closes and the ECU is tricked into thinking the pump is undergoing pressure due to a false reading.

On the attached diagram, I see on the far left 'ground'. I assume this is through the pump being directly connected to the block and in turn back to the battery.

IMG_7501.jpg

Are those multiple connection points along the cable (with reference codes for each section of wiring underneath)?

I understand what TorqueHorse is suggesting about the pin removal. Any other way to test before I start butchering connectors (really want to avoid that).

[roj]

I also see this on the big wiring electrical PDF.

diagram.jpg

After Googling, I'm assuming that BU is for colour 'Blue'. Learning on the job here.

[Fredjohn]

I also see this on the big wiring electrical PDF.

diagram.jpg

After Googling, I'm assuming that BU is for colour 'Blue'. Learning on the job here.

A quick look at the Electric manual tells you BU is black and blue together.

[roj]

Good spot Tuga. Thanks.

So it looks like:

ECM Harness Connector > LH Front Harness Connector > Cooling Fan Harness Connector

[peteoddcar]

So it will only give a high idle if grounded
Disconnect battery
Drop ECU and disconnect the plugs
Check with meter BU at C7 to ground on ohms
Probe from rear cable side with a paper clip if necessary never front face unless you have a correct size pin. It’s easy to open the terminals up damage them irreversibly if probing from the front with a meter probe.
Check if it is showing continuity to ground it should be open circuit.
Idle speed will only be affected if it’s permanently grounded.
I fear this may be another thing ruled out but it’s a relatively easy thing to check.

[roj]

Okay, progress!!!!

Have done a test on the power steering pump wire/connection and it’s grounding out.

So…..I think I know the answer but what’s the best course of action for tracing? Repeat the test at different parts of circuit by disconnecting the loom connectors?

I’ve found the connector block for the cooling fan harness. Anyone know where the LH Front Harness Connector is as well as the ECM harness Connector? I don’t think it’s the mass of wires that sit under the coolant expansion tank. The looms seem to be the injection, etc.

P.S. Can I simply pull the cable out the back of the ECU connector block so I can test TorqueHorse’s theory of having no connection and therefore an open loop? I don’t want to make matters worse by knackering my connector block. Any special tools required?

[roj]

OMG! FINALLY! IT'S FIXED!

Nearly....

After hunting around for all of the connection blocks and failing, I thought best to test the only accesible block behind the passenger side light pod. Disconnected and checked for continuity from this block bck to the ECU. No continuity and no beep on the multimeter. Tested it the other way, so block coinnection onwards to power steering pump. I got the beep so I assume it's grounding between there and the pump.

Left it disconnected and gave it a whirl. The video shows it all.

So not quite there. Still got to find the culprit along the line but at least I know it's up the front and not buried away in the sea of snakes wiring loom.

TorqueHorse, you are an absolute legend! If you hadn't had taken the time out to look at my data and spot the anomally of the power steering pump, I would still be chasing my tail. Thank you sir.

That thanks also goes out to everyone else who has helped along the way. Thank you thank you thank you.

Will update later on this week hopefully. Got boring job/work to do.

I'm so happy I could cry!