upgrades on my mind.

[robp]

Hi, i have a series of upgrades i'm looking at at the moment, and was wondering if you lovely people could steer me in the right direction:

first up is a new 2.5in exhaust - i'm currently looking at blueflame performance at £425 fitted (no cat)

also looking at larger injectors and a new ECU

the ECU i am currently considering the the emerald M3D which all the elise/exige owners seem to be falling for at the moment - any thoughts?
(550 +VAT)

now, injectors, i know i want to fit them before the ECU so the mapping is done to suit them, but given that i am not planning on bolting on a garret t3 or modifying the turbo is any serious way, what would be more suitable? 500 or 550cc? any suggestions on brands?

is there anything else i should worry about? new fuel pump?

many thanks in advance

Rob

[Nige]

Rob,

There are those around here better placed than me to discuss ECUs but from prevoius discussion I do know that an ECU change is not a simple swap and reprogram as the ignition trigger signal from the CAS (and the wasted spark system) is not compatible with many aftermarket ECUs. I think this rules out Emerald and Unichip, despite anything else you may have been told by those keen to sell you an expensive box of chips. The Haltech is, I believe compatible, and has been used by others.

Exhaust sounds a good call 2.5" or 2.25" are suitable you need to think about replacing the pre-cat housing as well as that has a 2" outlet to match the stock system, if you don't replace it you will still have a 2" restriction.

How much power do you want? A bigger exhaust without restrictions and an Everest chip from ESM will give you somewhere between 200-210 BHP at the Flywheel. I suggest you would only need bigger injectors if you are going to fit a bigger turbo.

My suggestion is go for an exhaust, an Everest chip and then see if you want more power (you will ) but this is the point at which you will need to start spending serious money for relatively smaller gains in power.

[robp]

Nige, already got everest chip and recirculating dump valve. exhaust wil be 2.5 from the turbo, its a h reg, so no cat at all
my aim, rather than top end performance is to allow the car to deliver its best throughout the rev range, rather than rely on boost pressure - guess i'm too lazy to change gears

[Paul.P]

Rob, i found when i had the 21/2" exhaust fitted, it was faster at top end, but slower in midrange, this was with the BBR fitted & not the chip, but i bet the results are similar, so if its midrange punch your after, perhaps the bigger exhaust is not the way. By the way, these are my findings, others will probably disagree ?

[Nige]

Rob,

Ok but you will still have a pre-cat housing, as they all have them whether the cat is in it or not, either the stainless steel funnel or something like Stevo'd stiffy. The bigger exhaust should allow the Everest to give its full benefit, the chap who built my exhaust reckoned 2.25" was optimum up to about 250BHP with 2.5" only being necessary above that. As you already have the chip which restricts boost to 0.9 bar you'll need to be able to run more boost (1 bar or more) for more power, that means a bigger turbo, that in turn means the need to map the engine to the characteristics of the new turbo and to control the boost produced by the new turbo a HAltech will allow you to do that, but you need advice from those whov'e done it, not me who hasn't. Bigger injectors will also be required for the increased fuel requirements and a new MAP sensor.

[John_W]

for more power, that means a bigger turbo, that in turn means the need to map the engine to the characteristics of the new turbo and to control the boost produced by the new turbo a HAltech will allow you to do that, but you need advice from those whov'e done it, not me who hasn't. Bigger injectors will also be required for the increased fuel requirements and a new MAP sensor.

This is beginning to sound rather expensive.

Philbo, Velisarios, Sy, Dave_M, Ashaman, turbocharger and Delta are the people who spring to mind as having gone/are going down this £££ $$$ route, and whose posts you should look through in the relevant threads. Or Nitroman , whose unique solution will certainly give you the best throughout the rev range, without relying on boost pressure alone. Brakes will be another £500-£1500 depending on your Wilwood/Hi-Spec/AP preference, and will certainly enhance the usability of the extra performance.

As Nige says, the standard setup plus 2-1/4" exhaust and Everest chip is good for around 210 BHP on a SE. That's OK for me, but then I'm too mean to pay for the turbo, injector upgrade, and insurance.

John

[robp]

thanks for the feedback so far everyone, my target is ideally about 250HP, but if the price/ponies ratio gets really expensive at about 220-230, I'll stop there for the moment. I'll probably go ahead with the 2.5 inch exhaust with the aim of continuing my upgrades again in the future - that is inless anyone else says that the back pressure is going to help at the levels of performance i am currently looking at.

so, my shopping list for 230 ish hp is what?
dump valve - got.
everest chip - got.
bigger exhaust - need to define ideal size.

anything else i need to think about? perhaps manifold area?
what is the likelyhood that fitting a haltech unit is going to eek a little more power out on the basis that i will probably buy one eventually anyway? Which models are people using? are there mappings available?

Brakes are being sorted at the moment, no need to worry about that one.

thanks again

Rob

[Doug]

so, my shopping list for 230 ish hp is what?
dump valve - got.
everest chip - got.
bigger exhaust - need to define ideal size.

anything else i need to think about?

ported/flowed cylinder head
turbo upgrade
project stiffy with new exhaust
piggyback fuel controller
new injectors
MAP sensor change
intercooler upgrade
front brake upgrade
possibly ECU piggyback

[davidjt]

And by then it'll be too much, unless you also fit some form of LSD......

[Sy V]

...which is normally fitted with a lightweight flywheel and heavier duty clutch.

Did I mention that I had a spare Haltech?

[robp]

Sy > i noticed in another thread you had mentioned a haltech you had going spare... I'll remember that when i get bored of the target 230HP

now project stiffy i can see would be of interest

[Houdini]

FYI,so far my expenses for the following totals $3,500 (This includes alot of deals and free stuff and will get me to 250 HP to 320 Hp depending on which Turbo I use)

Turbo
Charge-Air-Cooler
Haltech
3 bar MAP sensor
Quaife LSD
Aluminum Flywheel
HD clutch
Wilwood Brakes
GAZ shocks
Auto Europe Roll Bar
Misc. lines, hoses, adapters
Labor

Not covered yet will be:

Head and manifold porting/matching
New exhaust system
Dyno time
New Aluminum Radiator
Maybe wheels
Sticky Tires
Divorce Settlement

[Paul.P]

And the last one, could be the most expensive

[Philbo]

also looking at larger injectors and a new ECU

the ECU i am currently considering the the emerald M3D which all the elise/exige owners seem to be falling for at the moment - any thoughts?
(550 +VAT)

now, injectors, i know i want to fit them before the ECU so the mapping is done to suit them, but given that i am not planning on bolting on a garret t3 or modifying the turbo is any serious way, what would be more suitable? 500 or 550cc? any suggestions on brands?

Hi Rob

Injectors should be sized so that they don't operate at more than 80% duty cycle. However you shouldn't go too big as then at low air mass the injectors find it more difficult to inject the precise (small) amount of fuel needed. Massively oversized injectors = lumpy idle or worse.

I'd say that both 500 and 550 cc/min injectors would be a bit oversized if you're planning on keeping the standard turbo. In fact the standard injectors are just about able to cope with ~225bhp, though it is pushing it a bit. If you managed to get a lot more efficiency out of the standard system then you might benefit from one size up. 500 cc/min injectors are an appropriate size for around 320bhp and up if my memory serves from when I did some calculations.

Now, the M3D ECU. It's a reasonably capable CPU and up to the job of doing fuel injection and ignition tasks. Bear in mind that it's most popular on N/A cars, the turbo adds at least one more dimension to the fuel map.

I had some in depth discussion with both Dave Walker who runs Emerald, and Karl, the guy who designs the electronics. The M3D was really designed as a plug-in replacement for the MEMS ECU for the K series engine, hence it's popularity for Elises. It does NOT have inputs capable of handling the Elan CAS as things stand.

Dave Walker expressed that he would be prepared to make it work with the Elan signals, but they'd need the car in his workshop in Norfolk for a while. It would be exploratory development work. However Dave Walker does his best to get a "nice" map for the car, so the results should be pretty A-OK, if it can be made to work.

Overall, it's debatable how much benefit you'd get from fitting an ECU to an otherwise standard existing setup. They work well with Elises because they are N/A and respond much better to freer-flowing inlet/outlet systems and proper mapping. The MEMS ECU on the elise came from Rover and is...well, it doesn't have the best reputation in the world.

On the Elan, being turbo charged, there are usually cheaper ends to more power.

Oh, and you'll need some new brakes

All the best

Phil

[robp]

Phil, I'm quite happy to send my car to norfolk for the winter if Dave wants one to play with. but at the moment i am going to struggle to fund anything - contract ends in a weeks time, and i dont have anything lined up just yet. obviously the moment that changes I'll restart my plans to get on with the tweaking.

[davidjt]

Would that be Dave Walker of Circuit Driver mag fame? The mad one?

[Philbo]

Would that be Dave Walker of Circuit Driver mag fame? The mad one?

Yes that's him, ex technical editor of the once-great CCC magazine too.

You could call him mad, I wouldn't (well not to his face anyway!)

[stevo]

free advice.....

k&n replacement element
ported waste gate
stiffy
2.5 system with one silencer
esm chip
platinum plugs
robbie robot leads
ajustable dampers
uprated front springs
rear strut brace
4 pot brakes 275mm+

this should be good for 220bhp and give you a well balenced fast road/trackday car that will corner and stop where you want it.
not including bigger wheels you should see change back out of £2000 if you can fit things your self.

after that....

bigger turbo
fancy brain
bigger injectors
nitrous
lsd
flywheel
clutch
ect......£££££££££££

[robp]

really impressed by the replies on this - i'm thinking stiffy might be the next plan, could probably get blueflame to fit it at the same time as they replace the exhause for me. how do i go about getting one?

ta

[stevo]

you just have to wait for me to get them built.