Track Elan

[Dave M]

why not get the engine running before hooking up the hoses and all the ancillaries?? this way you can be sure it runs before you install all the other stuff that just gets in the way of finding a problem if it doesn't run ? ? ?

If it doesn't run, it gets trailered to the tuning shop and THEY make it run.

[Dave M]

OK, after the frustration of two nights ago, I had a refreshed look at the car last night while fitting the new Samco hoses. As should be expected, there are a few new items that need to be taken care of before it will run:

1) The Samco coolant hoses made for the UK cars don't quite fit the US car. There are what appear to be a few minor issues and extra pieces needed to complete the install. See the following thread, p.15 at the bottom, for more detail if you are considering this kit.

http://lotuselancentral.com/forum/viewt ... 9456#69456

2) After fabricating the new downpipe and having it welded, the fitment is too close to the antiroll bar. The easiest solution appears to be having the antiroll bar mount slightly lower on the "hangers". These are the little bone-shaped pieces toward the front of the car that the bar mounts to. An added bonus to a slightly lower mounting: I have more room to run the coolant hose from the lower rad to the aux coolant pump.

3) Oil return from turbo. Due to the new turbo, the outlet is nearly level with the inlet to the block. I wanted to run one piece of hose from the turbo to the block, but the bend is so tight, the hose crimps. I am open to any suggestions here. One option I've found is an adapter that screws into the turbo that has a 45 degree turn in it (a 90 degree won't work due to the space available). That would allow the hose to run without kinks. The adapter goes from 1/2" NPT (the turbo plate fitting) to a -10 AN fitting. The problem is, the fitting at the engine is a single barb, slip on fitting. If it were screwed into the block, it could be replaced by a new, angled, -10 AN fitting. But it is pressed in. Not good. I would have to have a number of connections in a very small space (read: potential leaks).

4) A few misc issues to take care of like slightly adjusting where the new IC mounts due to spacing issues. I should also use studs to connect the new O2 housing/downpipe to the turbo (need to locate those somewhere). I'm currently using hardened bolts which I know isn't best. Afew other small things that I should just do right the first time instead of saving for later...

All in all these are little issues that take a long time when most pieces are homemade. Especially when I have about a max of 10 hours a week at this time of year to really work on the car, look for parts, etc. This is how a project takes 14+ months.

One picture of "progress" (even though I'm removing parts to make things fit). The new Samco hoses appear to require a lower mounting point for the aux coolant pump. Hey, at least I'm lowering the center of gravity!

[Doug]

3. I'm not sure exactly how you want to run this hose, but cant you put a small pipe lenght in the middle of the hose run? = just cut out the hose by the bend area and insert a bent piece of pipe in its place with clamps on each end -- the pipe can't ever kink that way . . .

[Dave M]

Lest 'ye think all is lost in the world of tax returns and that my car will never run again (I sometimes do!), here's a few pics of the pains in my butt that are finally becoming resolved. Ah, the joy of having a plan and then adapting numerous pieces not in the plan to fit the plan. The new turbo and downpipe have had a slight effect on the fit of many items, not to mention adapting UK coolant hoses to fit a US car.

Pic 1 & 2 - the oil drain solution: use the stock 45 degree oil hoses (modified) with a 45 outlet on the turbo. The original outlet that didn't work after many attempts is still attached to the flange. Look familiar Russ?

Pic 3 - aux coolant pump mount. Due to the orientation of the Samco coolant hoses, I mounted this in a different spot. Made a bracket out of aluminum and attached it to the crossmember that holds the lower front frame. Mind you, this crossmember was also modified to accomodate the new IC. The angle that you see is not stock.

Pic 4 - MBC. The stock connections are for 3/8" hose, I think (barbed conncetion on the left). Since the external wastegate uses larger hose connections, I needed to find a 6mm barbed connection with a 1/8" pipe fitting (on the right). And a 6mm "T" piece... And a 1.25" OD pipe splice for the coolant hoses... And 1.25" ID coolant hose - with bends... Ugh. Thank God for the McMaster-Carr catalog. http://www.mcmaster.com/

[Houdini]

Dave,

You're doing good work. It's a PITA sometimes, but it will all work in the end.

,Russ

[Dave M]

Hi all and sorry I’ve pulled my annual disappearing act again. Wow - I can’t believe it’s been so long since I’ve been to the site. Sad, in fact…but life has become so busy lately, even after the tax busy season was over, that I’ve only had so much time to split between work, family, working on the car, and what seems like 4 million other things. Here’s a synopsis of the year so far:

Jan-Apr: A blur of late nights, caffeine, and numbers. I maybe worked on the car for a grand total of 10 hours. Seriously. After the season ended I escaped with my family for a quick vacation to find my sanity. I think I need to go look some more…

May: Despite my boys starting baseball and me diving back into the music world and playing guitar as part of our church’s music team, I finally got some time to work on the car. After all the time and effort, the final days were somewhat anti-climactic. Like all the other times I’d had the car up, she started on the first crank. Amazing! Most everything had come together fairly well, but the main issue became scheduling a time to get to the car to the shop to break-in the engine on the dyno as the owner is away during the weeks, busier than I am. I finally got the car in on the 20th. The break-in was quite interesting: a one hour session sitting behind the wheel with a detailed schedule consisting of 10-15 minutes sessions running the engine at 2,400 rpm, and then accelerating a few times during the session to various specific rpm limits. 5 minute cool-downs in-between. The shop owner monitored all sorts of temps all the while and said everything looked great. The only concern I had through it all was the one slight problem I had after putting everything back together – the coolant gauge didn’t work and one of the cooling fans wasn’t switching on. Oh the irony after all the issues I’ve had! However knowing that temps were being monitored at various locations around the engine, I felt much better.

After the break-in, we decided to do a simple pull to get some baseline figures. I hadn’t done a thing with the external wastegate yet, but the gauge read a rock-steady 10 psi during the acceleration sessions in the break-in. No boost creep with the massive Tial external wastegate! I figured since it was just a tick over stock boost, it would be a good way to see what the new turbo, flowed head, and other work had done. Plus, it was a lower, conservative level to start with seeing as the engine was still fairly green. Surprisingly it turned 155 WHP at a horribly rich 9:1 ratio. The owner said the power and torque curves were “textbook”, that I couldn’t ask for much better. Also he estimated that with the proper air/fuel ratio, I could expect crank HP somewhere in the 240 range. At basically stock boost! However the best news was yet to come. He indicated that the stock computer was having no problem controlling the injectors until full throttle. He feels even a piggyback computer is not necessary at this point, but to start with a FPR, then maybe smaller injectors.

June: I was hoping to get to a track day the following Monday, but with a coolant gauge that wasn’t working and only 30 dyno miles on the car, I thought a few more days of street driving were in order. I did have another track event scheduled in two weeks, so I set my sights to have everything ready by then. Thankfully I did get the coolant gauge working and a few miscellaneous other bits done, though the one coolant fan hadn’t been fixed. I’d even worked out a “tax returns-for-trailer” deal with a buddy, so if anything did go wrong I wouldn’t be stuck 4 hours away for home (the track day was at the Autobahn Country Club in the Chicago area). The day at the track turned out to be a mixed bag. On the plus side, and this is a serious great plus, was that the cooling system worked flawlessly. The gauge never moved from just over the first mark. No worries about the fan at that point! After all the past issues, this was the best outcome I could have imagined. A good testament to the new hoses, too which have had no leaks whatsoever.

On the downside, there were a few issues that will need future attention. First, the so-called “high-temp” gasket material I used between the manifold and the turbo spacer apparently became too brittle, and a large chunk blew out. The car sounded like a truck for the second half of the track event. Worse, it blew exhaust soot (remember the car if running really rich) all over the front of the engine. The new, really clean engine. Argh! It also melted a portion of the engine cover liner. Second, the brakes did fade again. While the AP kit does a superlative job of stopping the car, I think the normally forward bias of the braking system is exaggerated by the larger brakes. They require less pedal pressure to stop quicker, so I’m assuming the rears are getting very little pressure as a result. Therefore they contribute near nothing to overall braking. The evidence? My rear pads look like new after 2 years. The third and worst news was encountered after getting home and beginning the teardown to replace the gaskets. The turbo will need a full rebuild. Not sure what the issue was, but the shaft has way too much play and you can tell the compressor wheel has touched the housing. Thank the good Lord that the car didn’t ingest any of the blades!

What does this mean now? Well, here’s the plan: 1) Obviously figure out the best fix for the turbo. Getting parts and/or getting things replaced under warranty (hopefully!) may take the most time. 2) Buy some sheets of copper and make some proper gaskets for the manifold and for the turbo-to-downpipe connection, 3) Adjustable proportioning valves – enough screwing around with brakes. That may require a redo of the rear brake lines, but so be it. I’m bummed to have only gotten a bit of time in the car before it resumed its stationary position again in the garage, but as in the past the car will come out better than when it went in. Based on dyno figures, 300 WHP should be realizable. Braking will be optimized – and should be even more awesome. Plus the weak parts of the rebuild (gaskets and other little bits) will be fixed. More work and time, but at least it’s not busy season! I’ve got the time to work…

I'll post some recent pics soon.

[F1 LOTUS]

Always good to read your progress reports, looking forward to the pic's
Surprised you're managing to get the AP's fading The last of the late brakers eh
Keep it coming

[Dave M]

The last of the late brakers eh

It's fun to scare the Esprit guys that way. They only follow you once into the corners...

[Dave M]

My 2006 so far in 3 easy pictures...

[Ashaman]

Hey Dave, good to hear from you after a long break

Personally, I would say do not bother with copper gaskets for the turbo.

I did this and have had to replace them, they melted. My exhaust temps might be lower now than they were then, but I still don't think they are necessary.

I just resolved this issue _AGAIN_ this spring, this time I used no gasket to the adaptor, and the T-316 "monster" gasket from slowboy racing. I used Spiralock fasteners - and so far, so good.

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=5414&

If both surfaces are flat, and it remains tightly fastened, it should seal (this is the only way I ever got a good seal back in my TurboFord days also). I tried copper, I tried that exhaust-fiber type, they always would fail.

Are you sure the issue isn't being caused by the fasteners backing off? I am pretty sure this is what was causing my problems, and the Spiralock fasteners seem to have cured it. They can be a bit difficult to locate though, and I noticed Slowboy also has a spring lock washer, which I think would do the same thing but with normal washers...maybe they would be worth looking at if you are relying on the stock/normal nuts....

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=3767&

[Doc Fizzix]

Are you sure the issue isn't being caused by the fasteners backing off? I am pretty sure this is what was causing my problems, and the Spiralock fasteners seem to have cured it. They can be a bit difficult to locate though, and I noticed Slowboy also has a spring lock washer, which I think would do the same thing but with normal washers...maybe they would be worth looking at if you are relying on the stock/normal nuts....

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=3767&

Hmmm

Not sure if I like this line with the washers, I think I would pass on these:

After some high mileage though they wear out and need to be replaced.

I think I will stick with a quality torque wrench and properly preparing the matting surfaces (resurfacing and/or checking to be sure the surfaces are true). Also, I have always found it best to replace the studs and nuts with exhaust and turbo components. I hever had a problem using this approach.

Not that this total relates but I thought I would mention it here, I have noticed with the two exhaust manifolds I have in my garage and from looking at two other Elans the original cast iron header is prone to cracking in the same place. I am currently looking into having a stainless steel header custom made as well as the US version of the stiffy.

[Houdini]

I would stay away from washers all together on any turbo connections. They will fatigue from the heat and crack. Use studs and copper lock nuts. Also use SS gaskets if available for your turbo. I used them at the turbine inlet and outlet. They have a raised bead all around for proper sealing.

SS fabricated headers? They're great but they must be fabricated correctly or they will crack and fail faster than a stock one, and they are expensive. Our cast iron manifolds do have some cracking issues but I think they are very robust and actually flow quite well for the confined space we have. Of the 2 exhaust manifolds I have, one showed minor signs of cracking but it was very minor and more cosmetic and not an issue (I'm using it right now). The second one is crack free.

[Ashaman]

Sorry, I forgot to add that I have had the stainless gaskets fail before also...

I really think in all cases the failure was due to the fact that the fasteners are not maintaining the proper torque. They loosen slightly, allow ~1300 degree pressurized exhaust to squeeze by, and the next thing you know you have a nice melted/blown out/cracked gasket.

I did notice that sentence also Doc, probably a good idea to clarify what they mean by that. The Spiralock fasteners have a cupped edge like this also though, so they still might be fine, if I couldn't get the Spiralock fasteners I would give them a try as they are not your ordinary washers (which I agree would be a very bad idea).

At any rate, it is fine to torque everything down, and that is great for a while...it just doesn't always stay that way. The problem I think comes in with the repeated extreme heat cycles which make it not quite that simple.

My car had like 2 remaining when I bought it; they have backed off twice since then (with copper and stainless) using standard grade 8 studs & nuts. I asked around about any other options and didn't get any from local shops, I haven't seen these copper lock nuts?

I think the Spiralock fasteners are a good idea.

I would like a header too, but don't know if it is possible for the reasons stated...both of my mainfolds (on car & spare) are cracked, and I was told a replacement probably would also by the dealership

I am just hoping it doesn't get worse.

[Doc Fizzix]

I did notice that sentence also Doc, probably a good idea to clarify what they mean by that.

Hmmm, what did they mean?

Never good when you have to "clarify" for a product when the manufacture state that the product will fail, not sure this can be "clarified" any more than the manufactures own statement.

At any rate, it is fine to torque everything down, and that is great for a while...it just doesn't always stay that way. The problem I think comes in with the repeated extreme heat cycles which make it not quite that simple.

I have never had a problem with nuts or bolts working loose. For one, I recommend a top of the line torque wrench in order to make sure you have the correct torque; second, always have the mating surfaces checked and measured to make sure they are true and never reuse a gasket. Whenever I remove exhaust bolts or nuts from an exhaust system I throw them out and never re-use them. I do not think a copper lock nuts would hold as well as heat treated high grade nuts. I think a washer would cause more problems with repeated heat cycles.

[Houdini]

I do not think a copper lock nuts would hold as well as heat treated high grade nuts. I think a washer would cause more problems with repeated heat cycles.

I have never seen washers on any OEM application. Not that I've seen them all, but I see alot of turbo engines here and I have yet to see one with washers. Now that I've said that I'm sure one will show up, it never fails.

High strength studs and nuts (copper and steel, flanged and not flanged) and some times high strength bolts, and some times high strength through bolts with nuts, but I've ever seen spiral lock on any OEM turbo applications, but have I seen them other engine related assemblies that will never be disassembled, but rather tossed and renewed with new ones. The main assembly is not using spiral lock however.

SS gaskets are more common than not on OEM applications and are prefered. Occationally we have a gasket fail on our test engines, but keep in mind that these engines for the most part are very large Diesel engines that we run so hard they are worn out after only 1500 hours of run time which would be totally unacceptale in the field. They are run under conditions they'll never see in real life and they occationally blow out a gasket. Sometimes it's because the tech didn't properly torque it down, when switching out the turbos or reused the old studs/bolts (bad practice).

Bottom line it depends on the application and what you feel comfortable using. I'm using SS gaskets, high strength studs, and copper lock washers. If something fails I'll let you know. I would go back and check the torque though after a few hours of operation to make sure all is well no matter what you use.

[Ashaman]

I recommend a top of the line torque wrench in order to make sure you have the correct torque;

Really, it is irrelevant. "Mac" or "Companion"; there is no way to use a torque wrench in this application. Goodness, there is hardly any room to get ANY wrench in the space you have to work with (this goes double if you are using a T3 flange). The surfaces had been CNC machined flat, so I am not sure how much more flat one could possibly hope for...

I don’t' know Russ. I spoke with a couple different guys at Spiralock who said it would be ideal for this application and that in fact they are the OEM suppliers for many auto manufacturers, so it sounded good to me.

Apparently Ford & Peugeot also use (used?) these "prevailing torque type" of fastener for their turbo to manifold to prevent this problem. I guess Saab uses the copper nuts mentioned...though I have never seen them (and sure couldn't find anything like it while I was searching).

All I really know is that normal/hardened hardware resulted in more issues down the road (failed gaskets, turbo falling off, etc.) after repeated heat cycles. I spoke with some people at Loctite and they confirmed they do not have anything that will help due to the heat. From what I have read, OEM setups usually incorporate some type of a locking nut to keep it from backing off.

I have no idea on lock washers. I have seen them used, and I have seen them with turbo kits. I don't know why you would want to introduce another factor personally, I just suggested the slowboy washers as a possible alternative to Spiralocks.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack Dave's thread and start a debate on fasteners...this problem might not have even started because of loose fasteners.

The only reason I commented is because I have been down this road a few times now. I spoke with several mechanics who assured me normal, Grade 8 hardware would be fine -- It was not. After reading some more, pretty much any auto manufacturer that uses turbochargers I could find used a special locking-fastener. Spiralock sounded like an excellent replacement.

To each their own, but I haven't had these problems since using the Spiralock nuts.

[Dave M]

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack Dave's thread and start a debate on fasteners...this problem might not have even started because of loose fasteners.

No problem - this is great discussion! These are the things I've yet to do on the car. Find all the misc bits that aren't working just right and update them. The track day was just the thing to shake things around and loosen anything that would come loose. Other than the turbo issue, it's all good to end up with a much better performing, and much more reliable car in the end.

Here are a few pictures of a few other "new" items. The second picture is of the new front sway bar links. The new downpipe ended up just a bit larger (or at least in a slightly different orientation) than I planned after welding and was touching the antiroll bar. So I had new links made 3/4" longer than stock - in aluminium of course for weight reduction...

[Doc Fizzix]

; there is no way to use a torque wrench in this application.

Try a crows foot attachment with an extension, worked great for me and that way you can get the correct torque (yes you can get a torque wrench in there if use correctly). Since it is now clear that you are not using a torque wrench I think this explains why your bolts are backing off.

As for checking that the surfaces are "true" I am talking about any time you are re-using a part. Yes I agree that a new turbo should be flat and true but it is always good to check and make sure. Nine out of ten times I am sure the surfaces will be true BUT if the surfaces are not true you will have problems down the road that is why it is good practice to check parts carefully durring assembly.

[Doug]

Hi Dave

and I don't have any practical experience in this area and have no business saying it, but just wanted to throw in that you should be sure to install and properly torque the bolts down--this usually would require some moly lube or such on the threads, bolt head edges, or washers -- to be sure you are reading the torque of the bolt and not the friction of the other surfaces!! You can degrease them after instaled if needed.

[Ashaman]

Since it is now clear that you are not using a torque wrench I think this explains why your bolts are backing off.

No, it really is because they were not locking fasteners, and like I said - I do not have room for using a torque wrench. If you got a crow's foot on your setup OK, it is a good idea. It has been a while since I looked at a stock setup but sure, if you can, why not.

I have never had much confidence in torque readings obained with "extras" and they are difficult to work with but at least it would be uniform.

No problems since installing locking fasteners at any rate.

Those new links are pretty! Just think of the weight all around that can be saved now that you have started down this road