Turbo Creep.....

Moderators: theelanman, dapinky, Specky, clemo, Nige, Sy V, Dave Eds, DaveT, Elanlover, muley, Enright, algirdas, nitroman, GeoffSmith

Postby ESM » Wed 27.09.2006, 08:07

No-one is offended we all like a good debate

On the design of the boost control system I have to agree with ElanLover - it does the job perfectly well under the conditions it specified to run at. I suspect the squish in the exhaust is there to guarantee adherence to rules regarding the minimum distance of the exhaust from structural parts of the car rather than as a feature to avoid creep. I strongly suspect an un-squished 2" system would not suffer from creep as simply fitting a gasket with a 2" apeture at one of the unions of a bigger bore exhaust is a known fix for creepyness. Another point of detail is that the BCFV isn't there to limit boost but to increase it i.e high duty -> high boost, zero duty -> passive boost control at the wastegate actuator activation pressure (should be 0.4 to 0.5bar max)

As far as solving creep goes personally I couldn't be bothered with the whole remove turbo and port wastegate thing. I'd just fit a restriction (thus doing the exact bodge you criticised before :)) Why not? The primary function of a big exhaust on a turbo engine is to let the turbo spin faster and produce more boost. However, the stock exhaust allows the turbo to reach boosts at the limit of the fueling system's capability anyway, so there's really not much to be gained. A little extra boost at low revs maybe but not really a huge deal. Most of the noticable effect on power is because of the creep! A slight restriction 2.25" is still going to offer less resistance than the stock system. I blame the big exhaust fad on all those sites that say an exhaust bore of x is good for a power of y bhp - you need a complete engine setup able to get that power not just an exhaust.

I still run 2" exhausts on both my cars. The Peco appeals a bit because of it reputation for making a good noise but then apparently some of them screech at high rpm and that doesn't appeal.

I think I'm going to be the unpopular one after that - I'm going to get my title changed to 'wet blanket' any day now.

PS when Geoff was talking about the £300 above he was talking about the price of the superchip - not my services! I reckon it could be read either way...
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to sit on your arse with a blank look on your face.

Click on my WWW link for information on chips and ElanScan.
User avatar
ESM
God
 
Posts: 2441
Joined: Thu 17.04.2003, 10:08

Postby GeoffSmith » Wed 27.09.2006, 19:09

ESM wrote:I suspect the squish in the exhaust is there to guarantee adherence to rules regarding the minimum distance of the exhaust from structural parts of the car rather than as a feature to avoid creep.
:goodposting: That's the most plausible explanation I've heard to explain the carefully squared exhaust section / squish. Having read Mark Hughes' book, I couldn't understand how Lotus had expended so much effort in development and proving only to be caught out at the last minute by boost creep; even less that the solution was to send the exhausts round to the local blacksmith for a few taps with a sledgehammer.

ESM wrote:when Geoff was talking about the £300 above he was talking about the price of the superchip - not my services! I reckon it could be read either way...
Sorry for any confusion - Mountain chips are obviously a lot cheaper but infintely better performance wise. As to what Alan charges for 'other services' and what you might expect to get, I can only guess :wink:
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby vi11ain » Wed 27.09.2006, 19:32

Glad to hear that we're all getting along fine! :)

This really has been a very useful debate - I think I've been thinking about the BCFV a little too hard, as I'd managed to get it's operation precisely the wrong way around in my head - thanks for pointing that out to me Alan! :oops:

Your suggestion of putting in a 2" diameter restriction into the exhaust to provide a bit of back pressure sounds excellent - certainly a lot less work than porting the wastegate (and reversible if it doesn't work!). Any suggestions for a suitable material? I guess that a piece of aluminium won't last very long at the joint between the pre-cat and the exhaust, or have the gases cooled enough by then? I have no idea what size the hole is in the currently fitted gasket....

I'm glad to say that my exhaust doesn't screech (well, not before fuel cut off anyway!), and as I said, it was the cheapness (is that a real word?!)that really attracted me to it! :D

Many thanks for all your advice - I guess I should be able to get this sorted in a day of grovelling under the car now, rather than three or four, with any luck!

Ben
...of the plot
vi11ain
Tinkerer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri 15.09.2006, 22:07
Location: Esher, Surrey

Postby John_W » Wed 27.09.2006, 21:37

Ben,
Something to verify before you start taking things apart is that your problem really is boost creep caused by the new exhaust.

It might be creep, however something which makes me careful of blaming boost creep/new exhaust is that you describe the transition from normal boost to overboost and fuel cut-out as being very rapid. As Doug mentioned in an earlier post, boost creep occurs gradually in situations where full throttle has been applied for several seconds. From this graph taken on a dyno you can see that it takes 7 or 8 seconds for boost creep to reach fuel cut-off levels with the standard chip (although no cut-off occurs here).

Does that timescale match what you are seeing? A check using ElanScan would help.

If you are seeing more immediate overboost, then I would look elsewhere for the problem: a stuck wastegate, detached or cracked or perished hoses, a MBC you weren't aware of, or even the remains of a BBR kit. All of these are known to have been responsible for overboost problems.

John
Last edited by John_W on Wed 27.09.2006, 21:52, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
John_W
Heid-bummer
 
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon 21.04.2003, 12:31
Location: Aberdeen

Postby GeoffSmith » Wed 27.09.2006, 21:47

John, Ben's already checked the wastegate is free (see the first post) however I got the impression that it was happening faster than that caused by a bigger exhaust, so as you say, timescale is a good indicator.

Ben, if you haven't got an ElanScan interface, I may be able to help.

Geoff
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby vi11ain » Sun 01.10.2006, 22:39

Hi

I'm finally back at my pc with some time to write a post!

Well, I tried to get ElanScan working, but unfortunately the interface components I was hoping to use just don't seem to do the job. I have a TTL to serial interface and a serial to USB interface, but for whatever reason that just doesn't seem to work. I have had problems with this set up on other TTL "devices", so it isn't any great surprise!

So, I either need to buy one of the TTL to USB boards mentioned on the Mountain Chips website (from Active-robots.com), or.... Geoff, you mentioned that you might be able to help?? It'd be really nice to get hold of a "proper" ALDL plug to connect my interface with....haven't been able to find any actually for sale at the moment!

I seem to have modified my driving to avoid excessive creep for the moment, which probably isn't a bad thing for my fuel economy! :lol: As for timing the creep, it all seems just a bit fraught with danger for me to get any accurate timing - watching boost guage with car madly accelerating, operating stopwatch, while trying to keep an eye on the road..... "Sub-optimal", at best! :shock: I think I'll wait until I get ElanScan working nicely, then let the computer do all that for me! :)

Cheers

Ben
...of the plot
vi11ain
Tinkerer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri 15.09.2006, 22:07
Location: Esher, Surrey

Postby GeoffSmith » Sun 01.10.2006, 22:53

Ben,

The ALDL interface is half duplex so if you haven't got an open collector output from the pc, it isn't going to receive correctly. Check out this thread for some details of what I hope to have ready later this week for about £15 + P&P.

Geoff
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby hector » Tue 03.10.2006, 17:32

Hi,
Can someone explain a little more wath means "turbo greep"
Tanks
Hector
Hector
BE 1495 Villers La Ville
hector
Newbie
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue 14.02.2006, 21:32
Location: belgium

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 19:49

Hector,

Opening the wastegate is a method of bypassing the turbo to limit the maximum boost pressure. Turbo creep is when the pressure rises because the wastegate cannot pass any more waste gas. This usually happens after a comparatively long (several seconds) period of acceleration at full throttle. The usual outcome is that the ECU detects that the boost is too high and cuts of the fuel, sometimes resulting in the driver's head hitting the steering wheel. Increasing the boost cutoff pressure may solve the problem but the best way is to make the diameter of the wastegate exit port larger but this is not always an easy task.

Hope this makes sense.

Geoff
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby vi11ain » Tue 03.10.2006, 20:16

geoffsmith wrote:Ben,

The ALDL interface is half duplex so if you haven't got an open collector output from the pc, it isn't going to receive correctly. Check out this thread for some details of what I hope to have ready later this week for about £15 + P&P.

Geoff


Hi Geoff

By that, are you confirming that my attempt at using an RS232 to USB interface was doomed from the outset? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "open data collector".... :?

I like the look of your interface, but sadly I need a USB one - no RS232 on my laptop! Any plans for production, or would I do best buying one of the TTL to USB interfaces from Active Robots at the moment? I'm also looking for a proper ALDL plug - do you have any for sale?

Cheers

Ben
...of the plot
vi11ain
Tinkerer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri 15.09.2006, 22:07
Location: Esher, Surrey

Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 21:00

This has been an awesome thread to read through with lots of insightful information. I thought I'd post because I'm not sure if I'm experiencing the same thing.

So I've got a Federal Elan and just put on the PECO system. I also have the Everest chip and a gutted-out pre-cat. The car seemed to run fine, although maybe not as fast as I expected. I then got thinking about stuff and tried a test run without my old, stock, lame air filter and THAT made a huge difference.

So, I order a drop-in K&N replacement, snapped it into the dustbin thingy and away I went. Performance is stellar and a lot of fun now!

However, when I am on the freeway/highway and put the car at WOT, it starts to (what I would call) misfire a bit. I'm not exactly sure what happens on overboost, but the descriptions in this thread almost sound like it, but not quite. Accelleration on the freeway in 5th is phenomenal when I floor it, and the boost needle (the "fun gauge") seems to stay steady at maybe 0.6 (which I'm pretty sure is under-reading a bit), but then the car starts acting like it's misfiring. All of this only started after I replaced the air filter.

I'd assume that if the fuel-cut kicks in that this could explain it since it's hard to combust when there's no fuel. Does that sound like what is happening? What should I see in an ElanScan log if it is getting creepy?

And given all that, it sounds like porting the wastegate (as has been suggested before) is a great idea. However, I can't seem to find the thread that everyone refers to with regards on how to do it.

Thanks in advance, and happy Elan-ing! BEST CAR EVER!! WOO HOO!!!
1995 Lotus Esprit S4, Bugatti Blue
1991 Lotus Elan, Pacific Blue
User avatar
Hegg
Fanatic
 
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon 10.10.2005, 20:25
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Postby John_W » Tue 03.10.2006, 21:28

Hegg,
Not sure if what you're describing is ECU fuel cut-off owing to overboost. I've never experienced it, however I think that it should be unmistakable and be accompanied by a warning light and a refusal to go over 4000 RPM.

Perhaps what you are describing is just a plain simple misfire. If it only happens at high boost, the obvious thing to check is plug gaps. They should be 31 thou. If any wider, the spark won't be able to bridge the gap with a dense charge in the cylinder. Other possibilities are coil or leads, but checking the plug gaps is the cheapest.

John
User avatar
John_W
Heid-bummer
 
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon 21.04.2003, 12:31
Location: Aberdeen

Postby vi11ain » Tue 03.10.2006, 21:33

Yes, the fuel cut is very definite - it's a lot like hitting the rev limiter - the car really jolts, the "check engine" light comes on and I feel very naughty indeed.... :oops:

Drive nicely for more than 10 seconds, the warning light goes out and the engine goes back into "game on" mode.

I hope you get your problem sorted soon/easily!

Ben
...of the plot
vi11ain
Tinkerer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri 15.09.2006, 22:07
Location: Esher, Surrey

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 21:42

John_W wrote:Hegg,
Not sure if what you're describing is ECU fuel cut-off owing to overboost. I've never experienced it, however I think that it should be unmistakable and be accompanied by a warning light and a refusal to go over 4000 RPM.

Perhaps what you are describing is just a plain simple misfire....

John

:goodposting: :agree:

Fuel cutoff is violent. The first time it happened, I must have been leaning forward as I did hit my head on the steering wheel. The RH warning light comes on and there are 5-10 seconds of looking stupid as the inside lanes start to re-pass you. :oops:
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 21:43

vi11ain wrote:Yes, the fuel cut is very definite....
Great minds think alike, though some quicker than others!
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby Doug » Tue 03.10.2006, 22:10

Hegg, boost cut would feel like the rev limiter -- )which is something you can go test if you've the balls!) -- it's an ABRUPT surge of slowing as the fuel is cut. The way you state misfiring is what I would tend to also term misfiring and that is not fuel cut. Misfiring could be due to old spark plugs, base timing off a tad, old spark plug leads, sticky injectors . . .
Image
User avatar
Doug
LEC Founder
 
Posts: 7468
Joined: Thu 17.04.2003, 06:43
Location: Oregon Coast, USA

Postby DeeAitch » Tue 03.10.2006, 22:15

ESM said
I suspect the squish in the exhaust is there to guarantee adherence to rules regarding the minimum distance of the exhaust from structural parts of the car

I couldn't agree more. It is already very close to the prongeron & steering rack. I could show you a few current cars which have a squish to avoid, or sometimes only reduce, infringement of this design constraint. Designers do get it wrong!
Most maufacturers insist on 25mm Min clearance by design. This allows for all sorts of manufacturing tolerance stack up, adverse road conditions etc preventing the exhaust fouling on the chassis / suspension. That is a noise you don't want. You would not believe the test conditions to prove this - think Belgium Pave, hard on / off the throttle!
The usual exception is where it runs close to the sump but you will find that the position here is closely controlled by various brackets.
Remember at the factory they stand back a few paces and throw the exhaust on, unlike specialists who can take time to ensure it does not foul! My brief aquaintance with a Miltek took around 3 hours to fit without a foul or reduction in ground clearance - Nis... take around 1 min!
User avatar
DeeAitch
God
 
Posts: 1773
Joined: Fri 09.05.2003, 22:11
Location: North East

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 22:18

vi11ain wrote:By that, are you confirming that my attempt at using an RS232 to USB interface was doomed from the outset? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "open data collector".... :?

The problem is that the RS232 signal is being driven high and low - although the ECU will recognise the command to start sending data, the poor old ALDL interface will then have to drive against the RS232 output. Even if the ALDL does manage to drag its output to the opposite state to the RS232 output (and consequently get recognised by the pc) it isn't good practice and could be putting undue stress on the ALDL drivers. A technique to allow two way communication down the same wire is open collector where the pc output is only driven low to ground and a resistor in the ECU pulls the line high; when the pc has finished its message, it sets its output high (i.e. not forced low) and the ECU can then drive the line high or low as long as it can overcome the pull up resistor. If you were using standard RS232 or TTL output, then you were probably doomed from the start.

vi11ain wrote:I like the look of your interface, but sadly I need a USB one - no RS232 on my laptop! Any plans for production, or would I do best buying one of the TTL to USB interfaces from Active Robots at the moment? I'm also looking for a proper ALDL plug - do you have any for sale?

My aim is to develop a USB interface but I've had a few other things to work on plus holidays and now I've been struck down with shingles so it's going to be a few more weeks (assuming no more problems). I have all the hardware including USB interface IC plus a pcb design 99% complete but I need to get back to work to get access to the design tools etc.

However, if you have a USB to RS232 interface already, you should be able to plug my RS232 to ALDL interface into it and talk to your car! Assuming yours is similar to
this item on eBay that I've just bought for £3.48, I should be able to check it out for you. If you got a set of drivers with your interface, could you give me the details?

Geoff
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 22:33

ESM wrote:I suspect the squish in the exhaust is there to guarantee adherence to rules regarding the minimum distance of the exhaust from structural parts of the car


geoffsmith wrote: :goodposting: That's the most plausible explanation I've heard to explain the carefully squared exhaust section / squish.


Dave wrote:I couldn't agree more. It is already very close to the prongeron & steering rack.


Well that's three heretics who will likely burn in hell! :twisted: I've just been having a look at my old squished section and it is D shaped which approximates to a semicircle on top of a rectangular section. It is a lot wider than the standard 2" diameter and I estimate its csa is about 95% of the 2" pipe. Interestingly, just back from the cat is a narrowing which is ~1¾" diameter or 75% of the csa.

Dave wrote:Nis... take around 1 min!
Bloody hell Dave, you don't work in Mackemland do you?

Geoff
Calypso Red S2 #417

USB ElanScan interfaces - £60 incl. UK P&P & £65 incl. ROW P&P
User avatar
GeoffSmith
Kitty Fiddler
 
Posts: 15628
Joined: Fri 03.02.2006, 21:57
Location: S2#417 in Tytherington, Gloucestershire

Postby vi11ain » Tue 03.10.2006, 22:54

Hi Geoff

Thanks for the description - I think I have a little more grasp on what's going on now! Whenever I try to make up connectors for serial devices I seem to run into problems - I'm afraid I just think that they're all evil now! :cry:

"My" RS232 to USB is actually a friends (although it looks very much like the one on ebay) - I've asked him for some info on the driver etc (if he can find it!). However, the price of the part that you showed me means that I may as well just buy that (how do they make them so cheap??!!).

Getting a little more back on topic, I'm going to make up a test rig for my wastegate actuator - I just need a few bits of tubing and a T-piece. Should be able to dig up a dial test indicator and a pressure guage. If that works ok, then I'll try plugging up the output from the BCFV and see how that affects the boost - theoretically it should max out at ~0.5 bar, although something tells me it won't!

Cheers

Ben
...of the plot
vi11ain
Tinkerer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri 15.09.2006, 22:07
Location: Esher, Surrey

PreviousNext

Return to Turbos, Boost, and Intakes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests