AB cables or clutch, that's the question!

[valimar]

Hi Guys,
At last I had some time over to check the Ab cables, as suggested by some of you! I took both cables out and check if they were crossed inside or if something was not correctly fitted! As I expected everything was perfectly fitted! But that makes it even more strange and difficult to diagnose! I fitted everything carefully back and adjust the cables but the problem still remains: shiffting it's ok till I go to the 5th gear, then to neutral is ok but after only with force, and sometimes with dubble cluchting I can go to 4th or other gear! Also from reverse to neutral I have to use strengh!!!
As long as I don't use the 5th gear everything is fine! Is this to understand? I'm still waiting for the wizard who knows the answer to solve this problem!!!
I start to suspect that maybe something is wrong with the clutch! When I start the car (cold) it moves forward a few millimetres and the rev counter goes down, for a second or two, from 950 to 650 rev.! Also when I press down the clutch, the same happens, but not all the time!
I adjust the clearance of the clutch and everything appears to be ok!
Any clue to help me solve this problem is a good vintage port bottle worth...when you come to the Algarve, off course Cheers to everyone!

[Doc Fizzix]

Hi Guys,
I'm still waiting for the wizard who knows the answer to solve this problem!!!

Hello, not sure if this will help but I will give you my story.

It took me only about an hour to remove my old cables and put the news ones in but the next day I was showing the job off to a friend and we both noticed that the shifter did not pop back to neutral very well and it was much worse on the 5th gear side, it was also very hard to move the lever around into any gear. I studied the design of the old and new cables and then tried to somewhat duplicated the "bend" that the cable would be under within the car in order to notice how the grommet (bushing) would look on the lever and how free they would move. On one of the cables (the one without the pivot ball) I notice that if you place one side of the grommet (bushing) facing the gear shift lever vs the other side it would make a HUGE different in the feel and mobility of the cable. I then reinstalled the cables and this time on the cable in question I switched the side of the grommet (bushing) facing the lever arm and WOW! An unbelievable difference! Now the lever snaps back to neutral and shifting is smooth and effortless in all gears.

Might help or might not, just sharing my story

[Doug]

i do not have experience with this area, but think Al's point above is worth thinking about. If not a problem with the shifter, then it may be with a component of the transmission--waiting for Candles to chime in here and help out--I have no knowledge of the specifics of the gear movements in OUR transmission. It does not make me think of a clutch problem as that would affect all gears the same!

[valimar]

Thanks, Al for sharing your experience! As soon as I have time I'll check it again and let you know!
In the meantime I wait for Candles to look in here and maybe come with more suggestions, as Doug says!
Cheers, Rodrigo

[Candles]

Sounds like the clutch dragging to me. If there was an internal gearbox fault, it would more-than-likely affect just one gear, or the whole thing would be knackered. The fact you can force it out of gear tells me that the gears are working ok, but they are still under load.

The idle revs should be the same in neutral as they are in gear with the clutch depressed. If the revs are lower with it in gear and the clutch down, then the clutch is dragging. Adjust the clutch and it should be fine.

Describe what happens when you do the test above and we'll have more of a think.

Candles.

[valimar]

Hello Candles, thanks for your suggestions! First when I depress the clutch, sometimes the revs go a little down for a second going back to normal after. this only happens sometimes. I also have been thinking that something with the clutch diaphragm spring could be wrong. I checked the clearance of the clutch and it was ok. What is strange is that as long as I don't switch the 5th gear everything is ok and shifting is quite normal! Even when I change gears (with force) I don't hear any cracking from the synchronisers. Before i install the AB cables I didn't have this kind of problems. The only thing was that the cross gate cable adjusting sleeve (plastic) was broken and the gear shift poped out of the 5th gear to neutral, most of the time!
Do you see any light at the end of the tunnel
looking forward for more clues!
Cheers, Rodrigo

[Candles]

For the clutch test, you have to select a gear. The whole point of the test is to see if the engine is being loaded by the gearbox owing to the clutch dragging. It is a fairly obvious problem if you've seen it before! 1) Sit in car. 2) Select neutral 3) Start engine 4) note RPM once steady 5) depress clutch (revs may rise a tiny bit or note change very slightly) 6) Select 1st gear keeping foot on clutch 7) note RPM and whether car is trying to pull away.

If the RPM is appreciably lower in 7 than 4 or the car tries to pull then the clutch is dragging.

Moving on to what you said: Everything works absolutely fine, until you select 5th?

If that is the case, then I suspect the following:

Inside the selector housing , the shaft that converts your movement of the cables into movement of the gearbox selectors is fitted with a cam/ratchet device. The purpose of this device is to prevent you from accidentally selecting reverse when changing out of 5th. It works by engaging on selection of 5th, blocking rearwards movement, and only disengaging when you've been across the cross-gate towards the 1st end.

It is possible that at some point this has become damaged with all the pushing and pulling you've been doing and isn't working correctly.

One way of telling would be to remove the selector housing from the gearbox (4 bolts + removal of the clutch cable) then seeing if, with a clean screwdriver, you can easily select and deselect all the gears. Obviously this has to be done with the engine off or you'll get run over!

I'm kind of guessing a bit in the dark here: Can you tell us a bit more about the problem? Can you drive it? Can you get it into 1st easily to pull away? What is the history behind the problem? Have you just changed the gear cables? In your intitial post you mention the problem with 5th selection, then say that if you adjust the clutch it all works. Which one is true? Sorry if there is another thread to read here, I've only just read this one.

Candles.

[valimar]

Let me try in a concise way to explain you from the beginning.
As I said I only changed the cables because one of them was damaged bij the lock mechanism. From the moment I install the AB cables I could change gears in a decent way, except that sometimes the gearshift "jumped" from 5th to neutral. After adjusting the cables for a number of times, if I remember well, the problem I have now, started. From 5th to neutral is ok but then is most of the time impossible to go to another gear without using force. Everytime I take the car of the garage and drive in town I can change gears normally, as long I don't go to 5th. However it is never as smooth as with the old cables and I always feel a kind of friction when I change gears. Maybe you are right and with all the pushing and pulling something could be damaged.
I changed the cables about 3 months ago and I drive the Lotus as my second car and not more then 100 miles a week!
About adjusting the clutch, maybe I didn't explain myself very well, I didn't notice any difference before or after adjusting! I Adjust the clearance (3mm) of the cable as intructed in the maintenance manual.
Into the 1st I can get it easy and pull away without problems.
Thank you so far for your cooperation and please feel free to ask me anything in order help me to solve this problem!
Anyway as soon as I can I'll try your suggestions!

[Candles]

Yes that makes it a bit clearer. I'm sticking with my suggestion of the 5th gear/reverse baulk mechanism. I reckon it could be damaged. The good thing is, it is easy to check as I mentioned in my last post.

Also, if it is broken, you could take the selector housing out of the car, remove the mechanism and re-fit the selector housing without it. Just remember not to pull the stick straight back from 5th to reverse as you'll get a horrible grinding sound!

If it isn't this mechanism, and the gears are hard to shift with a screwdriver, then the gearbox has an internal fault and needs to come out. If it comes to this, it might be worth checking 5th gear (under a cover at the end of the gearbox) before removing the whole transmission. 5th has a selector, synchros and a few gears and things which can be changed with the gearbox installed.

Candles.

[valimar]

Thanks again for your clues! I think that you point in the good direction! The reason is that when I select the reverse I also need a lot of force to go back to neutral! I will remove the selector housing and check the cam/ratchet as you suggest!
As soon as I know more I let you know!
Cheers, Rodrigo

[Doc Fizzix]

I'm sticking with my suggestion of the 5th gear/reverse baulk mechanism. I reckon it could be damaged.

I might be coming in late on this but how was the shifting before the cable swap? Maybe I am wrong but I thought the problem developed only after the cables were replaced

[valimar]

Before I changed the cables shifting was normal for this type of car (this is already my 2nd Elan), smooth but a bit elastic and in my opinion one of the worst points of the Elan concept. I changed for the AB cables because I red so good words about it and also because when I was driving hard (on the high way) when we pass a big bump gearshift popped out to neutral. As I told before the plastic lock mechanisme of one of the cables was broken. My car has about 40.000 miles.

[Doc Fizzix]

If the shifting was good before the switch then I suggest that the cables are the cause. I find it had to belive that you could have damaged the gearbox just by switching the cables.

Have your tried the suggestion I gave above?

I suggest you try to re-attach the cales, remove both ends of the cables and then re-attach switching the side of the busshing facing the gear shift lever.

[valimar]

I will keep your suggestion in mind but first I'll check what Candles propose about the selector housing. I already disassemble the whole cable linkage and everything was assembled as it should! If the selector housing is ok my next step is to switch the side of the bushing.
Cheers, Rodrigo

[Candles]

Before you remove the selector housing, when you take the cables off, you could try selecting all the gears by hand. It is a bit stiff but possible. This would let you know if it just the cables at fault before you break the seal on the gearbox.

[Doc Fizzix]

Before you remove the selector housing, when you take the cables off, you could try selecting all the gears by hand. It is a bit stiff but possible. This would let you know if it just the cables at fault before you break the seal on the gearbox.

[valimar]

Ok, I'll do that. Thanks!

[valimar]

Candles, there is something I forgot to mention and it might be important for you to understand the problem! When I adjust the AB cables I used to change gears till I could change all speeds smoothly then I fasten the cables and went for a ride to check!
The last 2, 3 times I adjust the cables I could switch all speeds (with the engine not running, off course) except the 5th! Only driving was then possible.
That points even more, I guess, to some problem in the selector housing! Next Sunday I hope to have time to check it and possibly reveal the "mystery".
Cheers to all!

[valimar]

Hello everyone,
I took the weekend to check again where the problem could be! First as Candles suggested I disassemble the selector housing and checked the cam/ratchet device! But everything was in perfect state!!!
I also test the clutch and it is not dragging at all! After putting everything together and adjusting the cables several times, nothing whatsoever changed! Very desappointing but true!
Now I have a question for those who changed de original cables for the AB ones: Do you need more strengh to change gears, with the AB cables then with the original ones? In my case to select the 4th speed I need a pressure of about 5 kilo! Is it normal?
I'll appreciate your advice!
Cheers Rodrigo

[Candles]

No, I haven't got any other suggestions! Sorry!

Candles.