Turbo coolant supply

[epipete]

That's interesting, thanks Ray, I'll file it away for future reference.

The stud in question (as pictured above) is only accessible from the front and needs some depth to get a drill to it so I shall leave it for the time being. I need a HG test next and if the head has to come off then I shall replace the exhaust manifold or get it drilled on a bench when that job is done.

[epipete]

Oh, pleeeeze; will the fun never end?

Today I have attached the coolant supply to the Turbo; or to be more precise I have attempted to attach the coolant supply to the Turbo!

Having obtained the necessary washers and cleaned the old banjo's I tried to install the first banjo into the lower of the two 'holes' with a washer on either side of the pipe joint, as per the advice above, and, indeed, in the manual, ('though when I removed these banjo's there was only one washer on each this being at the banjo head end!)

Well, with two washers I couldn't get any thread to grip so I removed the washer between the connector and the turbo, again, I was unable to get any grip. I then swapped the banjo bolts and this time I was able to tighten the bottom pipe up satisfactorily.

I now tried to connect the upper pipe; this time I was unable to get any bite on the tread with either two or, indeed, just one washer! Without washers or connector I can get the banjo to screw into the hole but it needs to penetrate to a death greater than the widths of the connector before it will bite. Given that this is the same banjo that wouldn't bite on the lower connection it would suggest that it is the banjo that is the problem. But I fear that the 'early'/ outer threads on the turbo may be worn!

The depth of the banjo is, as per the photo, 25mm and I shall try to replace with the same, however does anyone know if a banjo of, say 28mm exists or indeed if there is sufficient depth to allow a longer bolt?

Ideas, theory's, spare shoulders and psychiatrist addresses would be appreciated!

Pete

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Pete: Is it possible that the "missing" washer(s) is actually there and STUCK to the block/casting or the banjo so well as to appear to be the actual block/casting or banjo? Adding a possible third washer might account for the threading issues you are experiencing?

Carefully inspect the block/turbo side of the banjos as well as where the inner washer would go and see if one or both are still there and that is what you are facing.

[epipete]

Thanks John,

I have looked again and, alas, that is not the problem!

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Pete: There should never be just a couple of threads holding the banjo parts together, so something is wrong. either the washers you obtained are too thick or the banjos have a recessed side and you are trying to put them on backwards (no offense, but I can't see the project clearly from here). Can you take a picture of the banjos, bolts and the washers as individual parts and then with the pieces assembled so I can see how much of the bolt ends of the banjo bolts are protruding? I will dig out a turbo casing and some other parts and try to duplicate your project to see if I can conjure up a solution.

[RayD]

I've just had a look at mine, (by torch light, the car's the wrong way round to benefit from the garage lighting) there doesn't appear to be a recess - the washer is visible behind the head and it's thicker than I imagined, ruling out yours as being too thick.

Even if a 28mm banjo was available it's not to say there are sufficient threads in the turbo.

Try to identify the quality of the threads separately by using a compatible new bolt in the hole with the pipes out of the way and a new nut on the banjos.

Ray

[epipete]

John,

Do these help? The washers are 1.5mm each which takes 3mm off the total length, the pipe is 12mm and the banjo (shoulder to end) is 25mm, therefore my sum is

25 - 1.5 - 12 - 1.5 = 10mm of thread to engage in the socket (& 11.5 if only one washer is used)

I have now managed to engage it in the turbo with everything connected correctly (only one washer ) but I feel that should I attempt to torque it up it as required it will 'pop' but also fear that if left as it is it won't be water tight under pressure.

Pete

[RayD]

It wouldn't have been designed in that fashion Pete, or expected to work.

Whatever else they had in mind they should have aimed to have the same depth of thread in use as the diameter.

It could be your banjo's are the wrong length ... it could be all the banjos are the wrong length.

Having now seen the "assembled" picture I would expect there are more internal threads available for a longer banjo ... try to find bolt that will fit.

Ray

[epipete]

Ray,

My CD Manual shows (page 40 13a (being page 276/368 of the M100 parts guide)) the Banjo with a washer either side, however the following page (277) where I would expect a listing for each part previously identified, identifies only a smattering of the items and not the wretched Banjo, so I suspect that you are right but can't tell what's needed for sure.

Pete

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Here is a copy of the missing 40.13A page to go with the illustration.


Illustration # 10 is A100E6342S.

The oil line to the turbo also uses a banjo and crush washers but the washers are part # A100F6250S. Any chance you got the wrong washers?

The banjo bolt for the oil line is A100E6442S while the banjo for the coolant line is A100E6341S

[epipete]

Thanks John, sorry but the link won't open!

[epipete]

Ah, now it has, thanks again.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

John,

Do these help? The washers are 1.5mm each which takes 3mm off the total length, the pipe is 12mm and the banjo (shoulder to end) is 25mm, therefore my sum is

25 - 1.5 - 12 - 1.5 = 10mm of thread to engage in the socket (& 11.5 if only one washer is used)

I have now managed to engage it in the turbo with everything connected correctly (only one washer ) but I feel that should I attempt to torque it up it as required it will 'pop' but also fear that if left as it is it won't be water tight under pressure.

Pete

Were the original washers 1.5mm thick? I looked up a 10mm crush washer and the dims I get are ID 10mm, OD 13.95mm, thick .75 to .89mm and ID 12mm, OD 15.95mm, thick 1.32 to 1.50mm

I have also seen much thinner washers which often get crushed so tightly they are hard to see and even harder to get them to release. Maybe someone used the wrong size before you took things apart and did leave out the inner washers and over-tightened the banjos to try to get them not to leak?

You said you couldn't find the correct washers in the UK? Lotus shows A100E6342S as a currently available part# and I can get some from the US supplier as well. They BOTH also have the same part number, so why did you get two different sizes?

[RayD]

John,

The washers on mine look the same as the ones in the picture, they are thicker than you would expect.

Pete,

As John says, thinner copper washers will work equally well, they don't need to come from Lotus, the local plumbing store will have a better choice.

Under the circumstances any thickness will do. They don't get better for being thicker.

You would normally associate thickness with alignment, or making use of an available banjo that was slightly too long.

Ray

[epipete]

Two of the washers came from SJ's and carry the correct Pt No (A100E6342S), I only ordered two because, foolishly, I only removed two when I disconnected the banjos and hadn't referred to the manual; the dimensions appear to be the smaller of those that John described above.

Nevertheless, using two washers with a thickness of 0.75 still adds 1.5mm to the length used thus still allowing a threaded section of 11.5mm to engage in the turbo. One would have thought that a centimetre should have given enough penetration to 'bite' and torque up!

I'll pop out and get some more washers in a while and try again.

[RayD]

Here's a random banjo to give an idea of the proportions ... the thread is 13mm diameter and there's 13mm of thread showing through without washers fitted.

13mm x 13mm.jpg

Ray

[GeoffSmith]

Pete,

Maybe this will help - the banjo was just free so you should be able to get an idea of the inserted depth.

Geoff

IMG_0441c.jpg

[epipete]

Well, looking at these pictures I'd say that the length of thread on the Lotus is marginally less than Ray's example above but there's not much in it, but if you add in 2 washers then the amount of thread (ratio against diameter is substantially reduced).

Geoff, your picture appears to show only one washer, otherwise it's either very thin or dropped off the shank already!

Could the manual be incorrect ie only one washer and furthermore is it possible that the tightness of the internal threads is offering the necessary water seal?

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Pete:

I think that is a "borrowed" picture, but looking at my turbo with the cover removed, the inner washer is barely visible but I can confirm there is an inner washer.

I found a supplier that offers a banjo kit for the IHI RHF5 turbo which has a bolt, 2 washers and a banjo with a thread for AN hoses to make up the system needed.

I emailed them to find out the length of their bolts and thickness of their washers. Their picture seems to show thinner washers than you have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Banjo-Bolt-Kit-M12x1-25-Turbo-Coolant-IHI-RHF5-RHF5H-/380802327804

[epipete]

Now my frustration is complete!!!!!

Thought I'd turn my attention to refitting the radiator, having derusted the bracket and surprise surprise I can't get the bolt holes aligned.

Rather than throw the bracket through the wind screen I decided a pint was the answer, so now I'm down the pub. I'd send a picture but the god damn technology of windows phoned and LEC software won't let me, grrrr