I'm just going to get involved publicly rather than in the background, I think its best these things are out in the open. Got a bit hesitant about posting this but its written now, so I hope I don't offend anyone;
If I understand it correctly….
Wayne has invested a serious sum of money into these parts with a view to manufacturing enough for not only everybody just now, but everybody who might need in the future.
Jamie's got an interim solution that he is making by hand which is going to be limited by how many of the parts-bin pieces he has got in hand, or can continue to find.
Is that correct? In which case if those are the facts, unless Jamie's project suddenly turns out to be of a much more major nature than 8-10 sets, it shouldn't affect things much. But regardless of whether its 1, 5, 10, or 100 sets, I think (and I hope he already is/has) he should talk to Wayne about it.
Group Buys are hard to do on here, and thats no reflection on the community. I was always quite upfront about the fact I wasn't prepared to sink all my money into something in the first place - I simply couldn't afford the loss if anything went wrong, and at the time I was relatively new to the forum, the community and the procedure. Wayne on the contrary has always been extremely altruistic about putting up the costs himself. I certainly wouldn't like to see his investment and the benefits to the community at large jeopardised by this but with no indication as to scale or cost its hard to say whether they will be. The nature of the community here (and its happened once with Wayne) is that if he was left out of pocket, others of us would want to make up that loss. That community nature will be lost if people don't communicate.
I've had several moments where projects I am working on have been taken up by another party - my response was always to say well please confirm if you are serious, because the only reason I do these things is because nobody else IS, and I want the parts for myself and the only way to get them is to get a bulk load done. If another person is going to do a project, I think its reasonable to expect communication between the parties - none of these things have ever gone public because when I get approached, I ask "are you serious - if so go for it, please!" and nothing ever happens. I am always very clear that the one situation I don't want is that I am expending time and/or money, only for somebody else to pop up and do the same thing, splitting the benefits to all parties. In fairness everybody who has wanted to do things has either posted publicly or asked me what I would think if they were to take up one of my active or proposed Group Buys.
Jamie's project would benefit from some indication about the level of availability and price but its all rather veiled right now. I would be hesitant to back anything thats going to jeopardise funds Wayne has publicly expended - for close to a year he has been talking about this on open forum. Whereas this is quite new.
I also think the personal comments and threats are completely out of order, as is the intimation that this is going to turn into some kind of competition. If this is going to ruin Wayne's plans as stated above thats a great loss, and the cost of it can only really be evaluated if the quantities available, and the price of, this alternative, is made public. It wouldn't just affect the FP seals if that project stopped, but a lot of future seal projects too. Hence I am not surprised its got a little heated. (Before anybody says that Wayne's prices aren't up there now, I do understand why they are not, because until you know set-up costs and then quantities required, its hard for a complete new manufacture to price anything. But Wayne has produced several items before and the costs have been in line with what you would expect, so I think we all know, for the main part, where the pricing on that is headed).
I think it could have been avoided if the buy proposed in this thread was made crystal clear from the get-go and discussed with those already working to produce the same parts. I understand that its developed past its original intention and I think I can optimistically infer that something approaching clearer news is going to be posted soon, so I will hope this turns out better than it currently looks. As I said, doing Group Buys is difficult and I learnt a lot about dealing with the community from my first real one, the hubs.
Most people know how this is going to go I think, but I support the idea that its a free marketplace and an open forum, hence my comments here. I think the pricing and quantities available should be put upfront as soon as it is possible rather than asking the forum "how much would you pay?" - to which a concise answer has been given already:
Calculate it proper like every business case with the materials you have to buy, the labour and of course (!) some amount of cash for your development, risk, stock, ... And set the price. Simple as it is.
Everything made by John and Wayne has been of excellent quality and in some areas where items are critical to driver safety, its very important to continue to support people doing so. No disrespect to what Jamie is doing but I think the essence of what I am saying is that if communication is upfront and honest then these problems simply can't occur.
If you're going to make a profit on Group Buys, say so. My thoughts are that its completely reasonable to do so. I believe I made a princely £3.50 per hub. By putting the pricing up front on my hubs, I was given lots of (free) advice on how much they cost before, what to look out for when making them, etc and actually managed to virtually half the initial proposed price. If its done with the community's best interests at heart then everybody wins. Be honest about the time you are expending too, because every hour you spend on here helping somebody is unpaid, every hour you spend on developing the group buys is unpaid, and I think its only fair people should cover their time at the very least in making, packing and shipping items. If you have to spend money on a mask to deal with toxic fumes, that should be part of your price.
Jamie, I don't think anybody ever asked you to make a loss on this, but I would beg you to consider the impact on Wayne and discuss it with him personally because its going to impact on a lot of other work he seems to have planned if this is contentious enough to nix his current project which is close to completion.
I think that this is something of a challenge for us, actually. I know that many or most people disagree with me, but I think it is better to have a secure ongoing supply of rare parts supplied by someone who is making a profit on each item than an erratic supply (say, a group buy) where a few items are made at a time and supplied at cost. Maybe this is the capitalist in me, maybe this is an Elan owner who uses his car every day and wants to keep it on the road with an immediate supply of parts.
This sums it up perfectly but it misses one fact, that the demand is so low now for the parts that a capitalist approach to the matter is no longer practical. Well, it is, but the maths wouldn't work for a lot of us - develop a lifetime supply of obsolete parts for remaining owners would necessitate such a high price point that most would think it unfair, or gouging. But if you then have to sit on 70% of the stock for 10 years, your first 30% has to cover the whole order or a proportion you feel suitable - incorporating your overheads for the space the stock takes up - which means a 70% or more, profit margin suddenly becomes the de facto. Thats not "unfair" in commercial terms, but if it were proposed by a member of a community such as this, thats how it would be perceived.
We have to work together on stuff like this - we only just got out of the "dark ages" as somebody hilariously put it a while back - so please I'd ask that a couple wee kisses and hugs are shared and some communication entered into together with frank and honest public information put forward so the members here know whats going on with parts a lot of us sorely need. I think the fairest thing is to do what Wayne has done before, outline a price based on quantity for LEC members, and if you want to produce more and sell them on eBay for more, thats fair enough. Putting them to eBay first isn't community-minded, and neither is throwing a spanner in the works of somebody else's existing project, so I really hope some communication can ensure from a bad situation.
I'll be off the radar for a bit with the usual Edinburgh Festival stuff but if there is any news on my group buys I'll post it up.