M100 not compatible with 95-E10 petrol

[lotusflasherman]

Most filling stations in France now only have 95-E10 available, a 10% ethanol (grain alcohol) mix to comply with an EU Directive that all petrol must include between 5 and 10 per cent of ethanol. Originally 5 %, but increased to 10% in recent years.
For some years 95 octane and 95-E10 were available as a choice, but that has gone, and 98 octane continues to be available, though most brands sneak in 5% ethanol. Modern cars are built to deal with ethanol, old cars are not as it is corrosive and 'eats' metal fuel tanks, fuel pipes and some grp resins used for motorcycle fuel tanks. In the UK most oil companies are achieving the Directive's targets by putting 10% ethanol in lower octane fuels and 5% in most higher octane fuels so the same problem may be here as well.
I haven't looked closely because I only use Shell V Power or Tesco Momentum so expect to stay at 5% content. Lucky we already have a plastic tank in the M100.

I'm proposing to use my Evora to go to south of France but on TLF an Evora S owner in Italy has reported two pistons have failed at only 6,000km and says there are 10 more owners in Italy with the same problem... other owners are suggesting that Italian petrol must be dodgy... and somebody posted a link to Lotus information about Fuel Compatability for the Toyota engines, as in Elise, Exige & Evora - I noticed the Elan 1989-91 (M100) is also shown so thought I'd share that Lotus say .. Elan is not E10 compatible

lotuscars.com/fuel-compatibility/

[John_W]

On our current european trip the first tankful was 95-E10 until it dawned on me what that meant. I then moved to the much more expensive 98 stuff, but you say even it has ethanol? Madness!

I don’t think I can blame my current injector problem on that though.

John

[Simon_P]

John, what do you put in in the UK?

Phil, just trying to think what may be affected by Ethanol? The Tank is plastic, as is the fuel pipe. The Rubber bits are the fuel pressure regulator, injector O ringsand the fuel rail hoses. I don't suppose Lotus did any testing to reach that conclusion, and presume that it is based on the materials in use at the time.

I also see from the link that they have forgotten the S2. The note at the end is also a bit odd, Ethanol increases the Octane so it should say don't use fuel with less than 95 RON

[Rambo]

I might be wrong but I'm sure some of our cheaper supermarket fuels contain up to 10 % EtOH and a lowish 95 RON. That's why I also treat my Isuzu engines to 99 RON Shell Optimax/V power and Tesco Momentum. And when I get the chance the even cheaper 99 RON from Costco ( the cleanest and tidiest petrol stations anywherd in the UK. Goid for cheapish Michelin tyres too )

[Dave Eds]

95 Ron but not from supermarkets

[GeoffSmith]

"But you were consulted" - Beware of the Leopard (HHGTTG).

[lotusflasherman]

John, what do you put in in the UK?

Phil, just trying to think what may be affected by Ethanol? The Tank is plastic, as is the fuel pipe. The Rubber bits are the fuel pressure regulator, injector O ringsand the fuel rail hoses. I don't suppose Lotus did any testing to reach that conclusion, and presume that it is based on the materials in use at the time.

Perhaps Fuel Filter body may not like ethanol, probably was not considered when car was designed, possible fuel pump components as well.. if Lotus say 'No' I'm not arguing as I don't use 95 anyway, apart from when I'm nearly empty and there is no 98 (or higher).

Mine runs an Everest chip and at Castle Combe 3 years ago I went on track and had a great time but came off after first session with fuel warning light on... thirsty little beast when you can boot it everywhere !
Went to local Texaco Garage on A420 and they only had 95 so rather than chase around the country I put 2/3 of a tank in thinking 'should be OK, some owners use it all the time ..." - Wasn't !
Second session the car was certainly slower and I wasn't happy with it so I did not go on track again. Topped tank with 98 at the first opportunity on the way home.

Had a bad experience with my Eclat on the way home from south of France in 1987. Filled tank with Agip 'Super', the Ferrari fuel of that era, but is was far from 'Super' for the 9.44:1 C.R. and my engine was 'pinking' and running hot shortly after. By the time I'd used 1/2 the tank to make it worth topping up with decent fuel the car was running badly but we struggled on to catch the ferry. Compression check at home confirmed I needed to remove the head and replace burnt exhaust valves...

I'm a bit sensitive to 'the right petrol' but must admit the "Ethanol issue" had passed me by until I read about the Evora piston failures in Italy....
I also find that old filling station storage tanks are not suitable either, though they are being used short-term, and explains why I have seen so many 'closed for refurbishment' in recent years..

[lotusflasherman]

95 Ron but not from supermarkets

You will probably be getting 5% Ethanol then ... possibly 10% ..

Esso website says this

"The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).
There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

so 'tough luck' to those in 'Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland'..

[GeoffSmith]

95 Ron but not from supermarkets

You will probably be getting 5% Ethanol then ... possibly 10% ..

Esso website says this

"The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).
There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

so 'tough luck' to those in 'Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland'..

At least Devon, Cornwall and Scotland are nice places to live.

[TrevorB]

OK, I'm a mere mortal and ex matelot with 25 years service in the Royal Navy (as a communications officer) and all this is way over my head.
I normally go to Morrisons garage with my Morrisons card, (Lyn likes discount on shopping ), and go to the green pump, both in the daily
drive and Merlot, not at the same time. I fill up with what is delivered through said pump. Now I know this is England and not Europe, or
Scotland, but are you saying that this fuel is not suitable for the M100 and I should be using a higher octane. I've not had any problems with
this fuel in the past and you certainly don't see many cars breaking down after leaving the garage. Unless of course it's contaminated, SteveA



Trevor

[Giniw]

Actually 95E5 can still be bought in a lot of gas stations but indeed it sometimes becomes a problem.
As a rule of thumb I think most supermarket gas stations still have 95E5 whereas the little unmanned gas stations in towns or autoroute/motoway only have 98E5 and 95E10 (and diesel too of course, but we are talking of cars here, not basement boiler! )


-----------

lotuscars.com/fuel-compatibility/

Woot!
Esprit (4cyl. fuel injection) 1989 – 1999 Yes

I always suspected the Esprit could run on E10 as it's more or less written in the owner manual but I find it a bit unclear as it's stated that the owner could try and if it's running rough to get back to petrol. Which is a bit both confusing and frightening!


EDIT:

Ethanol E5 & E10 – A mixture of 5% or 10% ethanol (grain alcohol) and unleaded petrol may be used on Evora, but the lower octane rating (typically 93 – 94 RON) will result in slightly reduced performance and economy. If driveability problems are experienced as a result of using ethanol, use 95 RON unleaded petrol. Do not use Ethanol blends with a higher concentration than 10%. Methanol – Do not use fuels containing methanol (wood alcohol). Use of this type of alcohol can result in performance deterioration and damage to critical parts in the fuel system.

Mmmm, so that is more or less what is written in the Esprit owner manual too. So it's not really compatible. OK it shouldn't damage the engine but still it's not that good ...
I am a bit surprised the addition of ethanol lowers the octane rating as if I understand well the E85 has a quite high octane rating and permits to add a lot of spark advance, up to the optimum, and without knock?!

[dapinky]

Well, my input on this is:-

1) - I have a lot of useless qualifications, but one of them is a BSc so I must know a lot about the science involved (I don't because it was in Environmental Biology back in the early 80's when no-one cared about the environment, and it has nowt to do with Ethanol... except as a student back in the days when the Government payed you to go to university, lots of alcohol was 'studied' )

2) I have spent 31 years as a public servant, with lots of experience of alcohol being consumed (by others!) - but not much Ethanol.

3) Like Trevor, I like to collect my Nectar/Tesco/Asda points ('cos points make prizes!!!!)

4) Therefore, bearing in mind that I am now a poor pensioner, I also go to the shortest queue , grab the green hose and fill up with whatever is cheapest on the day.

Maybe I need to do some research and see if I would be better off with 'better' stuff - but outright performance isn't my main priority (unless I'm tracking the car, and even then I use 'standard' unleaded).

[tigerdog]

Well, the Lotus fuel-compatibility link is a bit disconcerting. E10 has been mandated in the USA since 2012, California since 2010. Smaug has been drinking it for nearly 10 years! No issues I can see, but now I have one more thing to worry about.

[lotusflasherman]

Well, the Lotus fuel-compatibility link is a bit disconcerting. E10 has been mandated in the USA since 2012, California since 2010. Smaug has been drinking it for nearly 10 years! No issues I can see, but now I have one more thing to worry about.

It is a 'can of worms' ... ethanol does not have the calorific value of petrol (gas to you), down about 30% on petrol, so E5 gives worse mpg than petrol and E10 even worse...
What Car tested various cars and the Dacia Sandero car showed on E10 (10% ethanol) an 11.5% increase in consumption ... so can't see how that helps the environment . CO2 emissions also increased !!
e10-fuel-could-reduce-cars-economy-10-cent

[GeoffSmith]

Ethanol also attracts water.

[Simon_P]

I wrote a long (Dapinkyesque) explanation a couple of days ago but it doesn't seem to have been posted - My error I expect.

ethanol does not have the calorific value of petrol (gas to you), down about 30% on petrol, so E5 gives worse mpg than petrol and E10 even worse...

In essence - Ethanol has less energy than Normal petrol as Phil mentions and It is also an Octane booster (110). We traditionally think of petrol and buy it in terms of Octane rating but adding ethanol means that you can put lower grade petrol in and boost its octane so you get less of the good stuff to start with and less energy but you are paying the same. The science is that Higher octane fuel resists knock and can achieve higher cylinder pressures = more power. But the Elan is designed for 95 so you are unlikely to see the benefit - Keep collecting the Nectar points Dapinky.

The next traditional measure of petrol is fuel efficiency (MPG). Ethanol has about 30% less energy so E10 has about 3% less and you could expect 3% less MPG.

What most people miss is that less energy means less power (its not quite as simple as this) and 3% on an at the top end of an elan is about 5 BHP and the power loss will be across the range not just at the top end. So on the days when you want to accelerate faster buy the good stuff.

The rest of my long response was about Germany's lack of oil reserves driving the EU's need for Bio fuels which require the rainforests to be dug up to produce enough.

[Rambo]

I wrote a long (Dapinkyesque) explanation a couple of days ago but it doesn't seem to have been posted - My error I expect.

ethanol does not have the calorific value of petrol (gas to you), down about 30% on petrol, so E5 gives worse mpg than petrol and E10 even worse...

In essence - Ethanol has less energy than Normal petrol as Phil mentions and It is also an Octane booster (110). We traditionally think of petrol and buy it in terms of Octane rating but adding ethanol means that you can put lower grade petrol in and boost its octane so you get less of the good stuff to start with and less energy but you are paying the same. The science is that Higher octane fuel resists knock and can achieve higher cylinder pressures = more power. But the Elan is designed for 95 so you are unlikely to see the benefit - Keep collecting the Nectar points Dapinky.

The next traditional measure of petrol is fuel efficiency (MPG). Ethanol has about 30% less energy so E10 has about 3% less and you could expect 3% less MPG.

What most people miss is that less energy means less power (its not quite as simple as this) and 3% on an at the top end of an elan is about 5 BHP and the power loss will be across the range not just at the top end. So on the days when you want to accelerate faster buy the good stuff.

The rest of my long response was about Germany's lack of oil reserves driving the EU's need for Bio fuels which require the rainforests to be dug up to produce enough.

Unfortunately Simon, it's a very vicious circle

[Kathryn]

Esso website says this

"The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).
There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

so 'tough luck' to those in 'Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland'..

I filled up at Esso at Morton-in-the-Marsh today and both the 95 and 97 had E5 written on the pump. So maybe we should add Cotswolds to that.
Never noticed E5 on the pumps before, maybe I noticed it because this thread was fresh in my mind.

[Giniw]

It's a european new rule to help people figure what is what.
With Brexit in mind, I am not sure whether the UK is supposed to implement it or if it's just Esso.

[Simon_P]

Giniw,
We haven't been able to buy non E5 standard unleaded for ages. They are labeling it so that you know if it is E10 or E5. It's the EU so any decision has been made for you.

Think of it like the President of the EU Commission, it suits the Germans, you know it affects your daily life, but there's nothing you can do to influence it.