Elan problems

[Edward]

Where to start?!?
I bought an Elan a couple of years ago and enjoyed driving it very much. I had one (ok about ten) twenty years ago and hankered after one since.
Long story short, the head gasket went after some enthusiastic driving and a local garage has had it since to rebuild or replace anything and everything that seemed iffy.
£7500 later (clearly a “love project”, not an investment!) and it came back - I didn’t think it was right but they insisted it was and I returned it three times before they said they didn’t really know any more and I’d need to take it elsewhere.
Ended up taking it elsewhere and the cam gears at the top had been refitted on the incorrect banks hence running rough, timing being out by a tooth or two, soot belching from the exhaust and cat light on. The rebuilt gearbox still had a crunch on 3rd to 2nd and the steering rack, which was rebuilt due to a minor leak being noted on the MOT, had about 30 degrees of play and the car tried to throw me off the road if pushed at all. Oh - and it’s using from full to empty on dipstick every 300 miles or so.
The cam gears have been swapped around and thus running better! Although cat light still on.
The mechanic I’m now using spotted the cam gears fairly swiftly which gives me hope he may be a little more au fait with engines in general and thus a better bet. Lost confidence in the originals rather as although I have a running car I’m not sure it’s much better than when it went in…..
I’ve worked out how to download Elanscan onto the computer - but how do I get an interface between the computer and the car?
I’ve seen a few threads (including Geof with one f) but that was a long time ago - is anyone able to point me in the right direction please?
On Friday I’m taking it (very slowly!) back to the mechanic who seems ok so far - have asked for compression test to ascertain there has been no bore wash that may have lead to oil disappearing this way. He has suggested changing lambda sensor as emissions readings still a little high. Does anyone know where I can get one as they seem pretty elusive online - I may not be searching for the correct thing however…..
Does anyone have an suggestions as to what I should make sure is checked - I’m not a mechanic (plumber and gas engineer so happy to swap diagnosing skills!) but am reasonably competent with most things mechanical…..

[Fredjohn]

Sorry to hear of your problems. I assume you are UK based, but it would help if you put your location in your profile. Members can then suggest a local Lotus/M100 specialist to help solve your issues. Or even be able to pop round and look.

Geof(f) should be able to help with a lead, he's still around but I don't know his production rate! Or his current location Spain or Gloucestershire???

[Saltire]

Hi Edward

Sorry to hear about the problems.

I’m guessing your car is a 1994-95 S2 model

Cat light on is a simple fix. Your original garage has plugged in a sensor which should be left disconnected. I’m not at home and can’t remember which it is, but it’s on the rear near side of the engine - I’ll see if I can find the thread where I described mine
(EDIT: Found it; check this thread)

On the Elan, we refer to the O2 (oxygen) sensor, which may be why you haven’t been able to find the “Lambda sensor”. SJ Sportscars stock them. Be warned; it’s a b****r to remove the old one; you’ll need LOTS of penetrating oil and a BIG socket. The sensor itself is on the turbo heat shield right at the front of the engine compartment.

If you’re anywhere near Wiltshire, I have a mechanic friend with whom I stripped and rebuilt my engine a couple of years ago. He has looked after several Elans, and I’m sure he’d give you an opinion.

[Edward]

Thank you both for the insights so far. I’m based in Tonbridge in Kent and will try to alter my profile shortly to show that.
First thing I will do is go and have a look to see if that plug is plugged in!
Thanks, Edward.
PS I have a feeling that it might be losing oil through the turbo somehow as apparently it smokes a little on boost but not off boost…… Someone following and on the phone to friend in my car relaying when on boost and off boost to watcher in following car. Just keen to get this going right as it was great before it went bang. Which, incidentally, was down to an ill fitting expansion tank cap/tank combination that wasn’t spotted in time. This was an expensive lesson…..

[TrevorB]

Edward, have a try at contacting Maidstone Sports Cars in Headcorn near Maidstone? They have the expertise to help you. I've been using them for 10 years.
http://www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/

Trevor

[Rambo]

You paid a garage £7500 for a head gasket job? I would reckon £2-2.5k max. And that would include replacing the cambelt, water pump and all associated parts at the same time

[Edward]

Well that seems to have resolved the Cat light issue - thanks very much. And thanks from the garage that couldn’t work that out as it’s saved them all sorts of issues!
Feels like I’m making a bit of progress now.
Is there anyone in the reasonably local area who has a well sorted one of these who I could come and see and compare notes with?

[Edward]

It was £7500 for:
Head gasket inc full service and water pump/belt
Replace fans x 1 (labour only)
Replace all hoses (labour only)
Replace electric water pump (labour only)
Rebuilt steering rack
Rebuilt gearbox
Replacement rear callipers (labour only)
Sort out handbrake light
Sort out washer bottle light
Various bushes replaced
Clutch replaced

Only problem is the rack is worse than it was before and the gearbox still crunches from 3rd to 2nd unless I match the refs really closely. I’m assuming this isn’t ‘a thing’ on Elans - I don’t remember it on previous ones I had. I have read something somewhere about cables to the gearbox often being a problem/issue. Could this be causing the crunch as opposed to the gearbox itself.

[dapinky]

Edward,

Please forgive my very blunt words which follow - none of them are intended to denigrate you personally, but are my initial response to the work you have had done, and the bills you have paid.....

...... I really hope that you have something in writing from the "garage" who have "worked" on the car - even if the end result were driving perfection, they haven't half charged you heftily for it!

Okay, so I know that they were working a bit blind when it comes to diagnosis of issues, but most of that work is straightforward 'mechanicing' and not specific to the car and/or marque;

It is always easy to look back and see how it "should" have been done, and looking at the list, many of us would see it as a "simple" case of whip out the engine/gearbox assembly, that gives access to remove/replace the steering rack, rebuild the 'box, change the HG/waterpump/belts while it's out, then drop it back in with new clutch and all new hoses..... the rest are 'small' jobs on their own.

However, I can see that it is possible that it wasn't approached in that way, and that leaving the engine in, taking out the gearbox, then changing the rack would add a load more hours to the whole job overall.

Either way - £7.5K is at the very top end of any estimate I could ever imagine for the work to be done..... especially when the problems have not been sorted.

The 'crunch' from the gearbox is unlikely to be anything other than a problem with the syncro hubs/rings in the 'box - otherwise it would manifest itself at other times, with other movements. These parts *should* have been inspected/changed as a matter of course by someone "rebuilding" the gearbox, as they are a common wear item - and they are (quite cheaply) available.

Even if it were something a lot more impactful which were broken, a good second-hand 'box (either good to go, or ready to rebuild with new bearings/rings) can be got for a sensible price (I'm talking low hundreds, NOT £1K+).

The same with the steering rack - there is nowt 'magical' about the Elan one, they are re-buildable, and good S/H ones are about...... the biggest issue with Elan steering stems from a seized (or partially-seized) lower steering column Universal Joint - this is a £15 Land Rover part! (and would have been really easy to access/check/change when the rack was taken out.... I'm talking 1 bolt and less than 5 minutes).

I would be talking to Trading Standards as the work is clearly NOT fit for purpose, and appears to be incorrectly described (ie, a "rebuilt" gearbox suggests to me that it is a completely re-furbished unit to "as new" condition, with full replacement of any 'wear' parts..... not just an oil change and repaint!).

My experience of TS is that they will be only too happy to help you get the car repaired, and get any overpayment restored.

I would want to know that the work done to the car was done correctly, as I'd have little faith in the HG job, the belt job or the brakes from what you say the rest is like.

As a (very) quick calculation, I have taken the 'official' Lotus workshop times for the replacement of the big bits you have listed and this doesn't even account for any savings made by doing it as one hit like I suggested, but with each job done completely separately:-

Head gasket - 8hrs
'C' service and water pump/belt 4.4hrs
Replace fans x 1 - 0.5hrs
Replace all hoses
Replace electric water pump - 0.3hrs
Rebuilt steering rack - 4.5hrs to remove/replace.... extra to rebuild
Rebuilt gearbox - 3.5hrs to remove/replace.... extra to rebuild
Replacement rear callipers (labour only) - 1.4 hrs for 2
Sort out handbrake light - 0.2hrs
Sort out washer bottle light
Various bushes replaced
Clutch replaced - 4hrs

I can't give the time(s) for the hoses, as they are listed separately by Lotus, and each one allows for draining, filling and bleeding the system - when clearly it wasn't done in that way - I can say that I can change a complete set of hoses in a couple of hours, and wouldn't even notice the time taken if they were fitted at the same time as the HG job as they would all get disturbed anyway.

27.4 hours is what it adds up to - although, clearly, much of it can be discounted as there is absolutely no way that you should be paying for the 4 hours for a clutch replacement, as well as the time for removal/replacement of the gearbox..... likewise, the HG job would incorporate most of the time for the timing belt/water pump..... both rear callipers can be changed in far less time that doing one side, then the other etc etc

Even at the 'book' times, we are looking at 30-odd hours (plus the work of getting the gearbox/rack rebuilt)...... and I wouldn't expect them to work for £20ph, but equally, I wouldn't expect them to be charging you £200ph.

If I were doing the job for myself, I would expect to be able to do the whole lot at (roughly) these timings...... remove engine/gearbox assembly - half a day..... split gearbox from engine, power-wash it and drain it (including clutch removal) - an hour. Mount engine on stand, strip ancillaries, remove timing belt and water pump as part of this process.... taking up the rest of day 1.... this could be a long day or a short day, depending on how many cups of tea I consume, or fag breaks taken!

Day 2 - remove cylinder head and strip on the bench (then put my clothes back on before the neighbours complain, and get on with the work) - your garage may or may not have done all this - they may have simply replaced the gasket, or they may have refurbed the head - I always do. Assess the 'flatness' of the head, and if needed, take it for a skim. Lets assume it is in tolerance, so I'd clean and re-lap the valves, then refit the head with the new gasket. Fit the new water pump, belts and whatever else I could do before knocking off for the night.

Day 3 - strip gearbox, see what bits are needed (on top of the bearings and synchro rings I'd change anyway) and spend a couple of hours finding the indent spring which pinged across the bench and dropped down somewhere by the compressor. Start swearing at the ridiculous access to the steering rack, but crack on with removing it anyway.

next few days/weeks will be spent gardening etc to keep the missus happy, whilst awaiting for the parts to rebuild the gearbox, get the rack back from the re-builders and collect anything else I had forgotten..... as such, they are not chargeable!

Day 4 - refit steering rack/pipework. Re-assemble gearbox.... refit to engine with new clutch parts..... finish bolting bits to engine assembly, and drop it back into the car. Spend an hour swearing at the driveshafts which never sit right, then remember that it is easy if I undo one particular bolt on the suspension..... attach everything (including the new hoses)....... fill gearbox with oil, fill engine with oil, fill cooling system with water - look for leaks on everything. fix anything obvious. Start engine, check/fix water leaks, drain water and add correct coolant now there are no leaks. Adjust clutch cable, gearbox cables etc. Bleed steering system and clip all pipework correctly to car.

Day 5 - swap rear callipers, fix the other small jobs, enjoy the rest of the day doing a "road test" across the Preseli Hills.....

Okay, the timings are based on a mixture of experience and 'project creep' to clean up other bits I will expose during the job(s), and the speed I work at (being an old git). Back in the day, working in a pro garage, I would expect it to be 3 days work...... 24 chargeable hours.

but even if it took my week (40 chargeable hours) it makes your £7.5K bill look high (even allowing for 'retail' price on genuine OE parts).

So, to summarize, I'd take it somewhere known to be good (like Trevors' recommendation of Maidstone Sportscars), get them to assess the work done and provide a written report of what they find, and speak to Trading Standards before going to the new garage. Do not get into any correspondence with the garage previously employed - take the advice of TS - there are things in the legislation which tell you how much faith you need to put into the 'old' garage to fix your car before you can go elsewhere, but from what you say, they have come to the end of the road, and you have zero faith in their ability to rectify any issues.

[lotustonybassplayer]

Hi Edward, Rusty wishbone (Howard) is from your neck of the woods but i don't think he has posted for a while.I am not to far away Rainham in medway so fairly close, not a mechanic but i do all my own maintenance. if you want to "compare notes" just pm me. Tony

[Tuga2112]

I Agree with Dave, Get the tradings standards involved to get a large chunk of that money back. it seems extremely unlikely they done the jobs they charged you for.

just like Tony, im no mechanic but i do EVERYTHING on the elan myself, Ive heard enough horror stories like yours, and had my own fair share to tell.

best advice i can give it to do it yourself.
between the vast knowledge that this forum provides plus the stuff on youtube, you will be able to do anything as long as you have the time, (and tools, but if you can afford £7500 in a mechanic bill, you will be able to afford the tools)

i don't have anything on my channel that would help you (i have changed the head gasket, radiator, hoses and clutch in my car.. that was before i started doing youtube), BUT if i recall correctly the m100 restoration series channel has a video or 2 on the gearbox.

im already late to work, but ill keep an eye on this thread and add anything else i can think of that may help.

PS.
i believe Dave's estimates would be easy to achieve by any mechanic that has worked in cars before, from my experience, Daves estimates are about the same as i would expect from myself if i had done the job before in some car, but when the task is something i never done, i usually take 2x longer than he's estimate. usually with the extra time being spent scratching my head trying to figure out what is the next step, or what was missed in a previous step

[Edward]

The £7500 was a one off retirement treat - with that I hoped to get the car to a point where it was mechanically excellent whereas unfortunately I don’t seem to have advanced much.
My natural reaction is to do exactly what you say and get trading standards etc involved but having had my own small business I thought before I went in heavy, I would give him the opportunity to make good on the situation - but without he opportunity to work in the car again as I have lost faith. I ran my business with integrity and always had the view that it wasn’t if you cocked up, which sometimes occurs, particularly when employees are involved, but how you sorted it out if it did occur. eg One job, we put in a new boiler in a property with a newish engineer (ex BG, excellent references etc etc) and quite simply, he made a hash of it.
I apologised profusely, put them up in a hotel, ripped the lot out, started again and did a load of extra plumbing work FOC as a surprise for them when they came back (replaced dripping taps, replaced broken showers, replaced broken thermostatic valves etc etc). It cost me money to do the job - but I’d rather do it that way around than have someone out there unhappy with my company’s work. But then I never had a quiet day after the first six weeks. Ever.
Apparently that’s unusual but that’s the way I’ve always been.
However, if he is not forthcoming with a large proportion of the money back or a prepaid amount to another garage then I suspect we will end up in court as when a business has your money they are usually reluctant to give it back.He has promised a reply to my letter of ten days ago but it is yet to be received despite a chase up two days ago.
It was unfortunate that I ended up going there - a run of bad luck possibly. I went into Maidstone Sports Cars and they looked at the car and promised to come back with a price for the works. I chased them for about six weeks or so but it got to the point I was embarrassed to call again as it was probably the fifth email and fifth or more phone call over a period of a couple of months. I got to the point where I assumed they weren’t interested - it was a guy called Will I spoke to and he was pleasant and seemed to know his stuff but I couldn’t extract a price from them despite repeated reassurances that it would be with me tomorrow.
Trevor - if you’d be happy to “get me in the door” I’d be happy to give them another go…..
It’s going in for a compression test elsewhere on Friday - I have a horrible feeling it might now be block/bottom end involved as well as it’s using a lot of oil - and subject to that being ok/not it may have a new O2 sensor fitted as well.
I’ll update as to the scenario after the weekend.

[dapinky]

Edward,

I applaud your willingness to try to resolve the matter without getting heavy-handed...... unfortunately, not every business is as honourable as you were (are).

Having been involved from both sides during different disputes over the years (never yet lost a case, either!) I would still suggest at least speaking with TS, even if it is just a simple email message to them to say what has happened, what you wish to do, and how you are intending to approach it (initially without their official input) - it is always better to have "something" in writing at an early stage, and then logged throughout.

An independent expert witness is always your very best friend - and at times like this I wished that I lived closer to you, but from West Wales it is a bit of a trek.

I would say that although somewhere like MSC is a great place to get an opinion, it doesn't actually NEED to be from a Lotus garage - any competent vehicle examiner/inspector (not just an MOT man) will be able to do what is required. (They basically look at the work done, compare it to an "expected standard", and to the "official time" from the manufacturer and see how it all adds up against the bill presented).

The inspection will (probably, unless the system has changed over the past few years) need to be verified by an inspector on the approved list at TS - basically a VOSA appointed guy/girl or a recognised Independent Expert..... if it gets to that stage.

In the past I have inspected many dozens of cars (only one Elan though) and prepared the reports for criminal courts, and a few for civil cases, although not many.

It is always nice to think that everyone will be honourable, but realism (cynicism!) prevents me from having that outlook all the time.

In an ideal world, MSC will look at the car, decide what has/hasn't been done and the original garage will pay the bill and everyone will be happy.

It is just very annoying for you to have waited for a time to actually enjoy the car, and now you can't.

[TrevorB]

It was unfortunate that I ended up going there - a run of bad luck possibly. I went into Maidstone Sports Cars and they looked at the car and promised to come back with a price for the works. I chased them for about six weeks or so but it got to the point I was embarrassed to call again as it was probably the fifth email and fifth or more phone call over a period of a couple of months. I got to the point where I assumed they weren’t interested - it was a guy called Will I spoke to and he was pleasant and seemed to know his stuff but I couldn’t extract a price from them despite repeated reassurances that it would be with me tomorrow.
Trevor - if you’d be happy to “get me in the door” I’d be happy to give them another go…..

Edward, if you pm me all your details i.e. full name car details and what you told MSC and when I am happy to contact them and speak with Will or Andy about your issue, hopefully to get you some response. Also if you feel seeing another car that is running ok then I'm happy to take a run out to Tonbridge to meet up.

Trevor

[Edward]

I’d just like to say thank you very much for everyone’s assistance so far - some of you have clearly taken a lot of time and trouble to run through your thoughts on this.
All have been duly noted and I will let you know the outcome!
I hope it will be a chunk of money back from the original garage and someone else fixing the Elan.

[Rambo]

I too admire your honesty and integrity Edward. It's how I always handled my self employed business and my 30+ years in the private sector. There are lots of these decent, honest people that I know on LEC too. It's just a pity there aren't more of these types out there

Good luck with your quest and resolution of the issue(s)

[TrevorB]

Edward

Couple of unread PM's for you.

Regards

Trevor

[Edward]

Oh wow - so this is still ongoing. I took the garage to court but they had insurance so it has turned into David and Goliath. Me against a very well law firm. They have bullied and intimidated but I’m still going. And have no intention of letting the swine get away with this.
However, at this stage I have to provide three expert joint witnesses for them to choose one from. The car is driveable (just) but I can’t really take it far as quite frankly it does seem safe so all three would ideally be within a reasonable range of Tonbridge in Kent.
Can anyone advise of suitable expert witnesses? Unfortunately someone who is an expert and works with M100s every day is not an expert according to the courts - they have to be able and willing to provide a report suitable to the court (be CP35 compliant).
Much as this seems ridiculous the matter of writing the report in the correct way is more important than working with the car itself and knowing it inside out.
I’d be very grateful for any assistance as this has certainly been a marathon……! I’d really like to one day get my car back on the road and enjoy driving it again…..

[Tuga2112]

You may hear back from someone (im not going to drop names so that person doesnt feel obligated), but that will not happen before wedn/thurs. im afraid i am unable to help directly. and being located in the northeast its unlikely i can help. but lucky you, Monday is the NELOC get together, i can always ask there if anyone knows someone who can help... even tho it be unlikely to be someone local. it likely be someone who is somewhat familiar with how lotuses in general operate

[Edward]

Thanks - any assistance would be gratefully received in terms of finding suitable expert witnesses who are capable of writing a court approved (CP35 compliant) court report.
I look forward to hearing from anyone who can help.
At the moment the most pressing issue is this report to extract the funds from the chap via the court system so I can have another go at repairing it - currently in my garage until funds permit…..
Anyone who can recommend someone to rebuild the engine would be of interest as a starting point. It has now been confirmed that the cylinders are all scored and so it needs a full engine rebuild - I also asked them to check this prior to doing the head gasket and other bits but it appears they missed this too…..